Newbee starting out questions

[kayasaman]

Hi everyone, I can see that many people are asking introductory questions here so that is good and I won't feel so lost though my incentive maybe a little "different" for UK based use

My interest in HAM radio is more mobile (automotive) based as I'm seeing quite a few overlanders running ICOM 5100's or Kenwood D710G's in their rigs for vehicle to vehicle comms when traveling in a convoy.
Unfortunately it is not permitted in the UK to drive and talk at the same time but if traveling internationally there are many more relaxed countries then here, especially once you get into the middle of nowhere.

I guess you could say that my main interest is in data as well as mobile comms, in terms of APRS and fully KISS enabled TNC. Weather updates and location information as well as other stuff like images etc... are pretty useful and actually complements or supplements a system like Garmin InReach pretty well.

I mean, you could be cruising through somewhere like central Turkey and notice on a vehicle mounted tablet running APRS Droid software that someone with a HAM is approaching your location.
Fun fact I was tracking a guy doing around 110Mph on aprs.fi out there earlier haha.... and another guy using a Yaesu radio on the M25 close to the A34 junction <outer London ring road near Watford>

Does APRS data need to be public or can you lock it down and choose who to send it to or who can see it? Say the folks and family back home?


Seeing this from ICOM also got me really excited: Icom Satellite Radios Drive Communication for Land Rover Launch - Icom Case Studies - Icom UK

Another question here I guess.... is if using the HAM radio in a vehicle - say if you're in Alaska and by the Yukon. Can you use it like a 2-way radio (walkie talkie) type scenario. Are there frequencies or ways to just have a radio to radio conversation without actually interfering with anyone else and using HAM etiquette?
The reason I'm asking this is that I've seen this done with the ICOM 5100 in a Youtube video but got confused after watching the HAM intro material below... - though of course that is for when in a Net or using a repeater/gateway style scenario??

I guess the most exciting thing is hearing that ICOM has come out with the new 5200 featuring APRS and full KISS enabled TNC as well as Kenwood with their D750 or is it 950? I forgot the name hmm....
Unlike Yaesu which seem to use a non-KISS or "crippled" in some peoples terms TNC ( which seems to only be able to be used with their software? is what I read? unless I misunderstood ), having a fully featured system really is brilliant.

So leaving the Overlanding and 4x4 rig aside for the moment... "Breaker Breaker to the Bandit" - as well as Burt Reynolds and Jackie Gleason and their CB radios haha

- was a fun watch!!


I was thinking about potentially getting a Kenwood D75 which has everything I need to learn about what I'm interested in and possibly using a DStar to *any* gateway to give me access to pretty much every available DMR room or net out there....

So far I have been watching these videos:

- YouTube


For licencing I found this: Amateur Radio Foundation Training Slides | Ham Train


I also read about operating a HAM abroad too: Operating Abroad - Radio Society of Great Britain - Main Site : Radio Society of Great Britain – Main Site


From repeaterbook.com and the aprs.fi websites I did actually see a few FM repeaters near me within say a mile or 2 radius.

Unfortunately there are no DStar reflectors around my locale at all so I was thinking I could potentially build one?
- my background is technical so that shouldn't be a problem once I know what I actually need....


Something I stumbled upon was this: How to create an XLX D-Star or DMR or YSF Reflector - N5AMD's Digital Voice Resource

What I'm a little confused about here is how would you go about accessing that server from a radio? Wouldn't you need to have some kind of RF transceiver then demodulate the signal to extract the voice data, then re-encapsulate that into an IP packet and fire it off towards another D-Star or whatever reflector/repeater?
Even if you used DMR, it still seems to use a VHF/UHF carrier frequency:

Digital mobile radio - Wikipedia


In the meantime I checked out the ICOM repeaters which seem to do RF too: https://icomuk.co.uk/files/icom/PDF/productManual/ID-RP4010V_RP2010V_RP1200VD_ENG_5.pdf

So I guess you might use one of these things and couple that to say the above Debian based XLX server/gateway?

Is there another such "box" (for lack of a better name for now to my level of understanding) that will take data from say a UHF or VHF frequency and then transcode that to whatever digital protocol you want to use?
I guess "black box" style vendor based or even opensource with the right hardware like RF card is what I mean here....
Is it a combination repeater/reflecter -> gateway that I mean in anycase....?


Apologies for quite a convoluted post but any ideas and feedback are highly appreciated!!


I can see that I'll have a lot of fun with this if I actually am able to get into it....

 

[KB4MSZ]

Unfortunately it is not permitted in the UK to drive and talk at the same time

Hum .......... Does this include in-laws?

 

[kayasaman]

Hum .......... Does this include in-laws?

Not quite sure what you meant but it is illegal over here to hold a communications device while driving.....

Actually more specifically you need to keep both hands on the wheel at all times. Not sure how this is getting pushed out with the new AI cameras over here but it's really starting to become crazily oppressive!

So this is not possible :-(




Even though the rig is so cool!!




My actual idea comes more from Overlanding over "rolling" HAM Shack - from Sweden with an Arctic Trucks Isuzu D-Max AT33 build:

 

[MikeGTI]

Hi kayasaman, I think you may be conflating mobile phone usage while driving with two-way radio usage while driving, which are distinct and separate. Two-way radio usage is allowed, provided it is not designed to transmit on (mostly) cellular frequencies - Is it illegal to use a CB or two way radio whilst driving? | West Yorkshire Police

 

[kayasaman]

Hi kayasaman, I think you may be conflating mobile phone usage while driving with two-way radio usage while driving, which are distinct and separate. Two-way radio usage is allowed, provided it is not designed to transmit on (mostly) cellular frequencies - Is it illegal to use a CB or two way radio whilst driving? | West Yorkshire Police

Things are really confusing!!

I found this from ICOM:

Can I Operate a Two-Way Radio when driving? - General Icom FAQ's

The law is very strict about the use of portable equipment in a vehicle. The law states that you cannot use a mobile phone or device if you need to hold a device or any part of it to operate it when driving. This is true of all technologies including phones, SATNAV and handheld radio devices...

icomuk.co.uk

Although two way radios are not specifically mentioned in the legislation, it states that a user must always be in control of the vehicle and an employer may contravene Health and Safety regulations by requiring an employee to use the radio while driving.


To reduce the risk the vehicle should be fitted with hands free facilities and the employee informed that it is preferred that they should stop in a safe place turn off the engine before using a handheld device.

Doesn't this make the system the same as cellular telephones? Using a handsfree kit or like I do just BT the phone to the cars speakers using a Belkin puck.

Here's another link: The Use of Two Way Radio Equipment in a Vehicle - IP/LTE/RoIP Radio Articles - Icom UK


There is something fun about doing this though haha:

In any case as long as it's legal to have the thing fitted even if not in use that at least puts me a little bit more at ease....


Though I'm still unsure about the components I'd need to build a repeater(reflector)/gateway solution. Having had a look Hotspots they all seem to be wifi based which is not going to work in my area.... I use a Cisco WLC 4400 series for my wifi with multiple Cisco 1142 AP's and hardly get any connectivity. Lots of bandwidth contention, RF interference etc... we barely get any cell signal either :-(
Also I'm not a fan of Raspberry Pi hardware as it's way under powered for most things and I was advised a while ago to steer clear so I went for the Pine64-LTS for my GPS NTP Strautum 1 server and "Home Controller" (glorified astro clock basically).

Maybe I need a chat with ICOM or so - until I tell them I want an OpenSource solution lol??

 

[EAFrizzle]

When it comes to the law, opinions of law enforcement are generally more sound than those of a company that profits from selling accessories that solve the "problem" they calim.

 

[kayasaman]

When it comes to the law, opinions of law enforcement are generally more sound than those of a company that profits from selling accessories that solve the "problem" they calim.

I wasn't disputing that... however, to me both sound like it's not possible unless you have some kind of handsfree headset.

I could always try asking the course over in Essex that I found as they're probably seasoned HAM users?

 

[EAFrizzle]

That police opinion sounded pretty straightforward that 2-way radio use outside of those bands is perfectly legal. Locals would be able to tell you if the police abide by that or not.

Since they're very specific about the frequency bands that are prohibited, I'd assume that POC radio use while driving is illegal, even though the physical use is the same as any other

 

[nd5y]

Does APRS data need to be public or can you lock it down and choose who to send it to or who can see it? Say the folks and family back home?

Ham radio APRS is public and uses the unconnected mode in the AX.25 packet radio protocol. I don't think there is any way to limit it to certain stations.
Hams put up internet connected gateways that monitor the APRS frequency that is used where they are.
If you wanted only certain people to be able to see it you would need to use some frequency other than 144.39, or whatever frequency is commonly used in the UK, and build your own gateways and web server. If everybody was nearby and within radio range of eachother you could do it without the internet.

 

[kayasaman]

That police opinion sounded pretty straightforward that 2-way radio use outside of those bands is perfectly legal. Locals would be able to tell you if the police abide by that or not.

Since they're very specific about the frequency bands that are prohibited, I'd assume that POC radio use while driving is illegal, even though the physical use is the same as any other

Yeah... exactly. I don't wana really get hung up on the driving while talking on a 2-way radio thing but in terms of if there was anything else I could learn about the "local system" here?

I have heard that terminology is different eg. the term "Trunking" isn't used here... I also wonder if HAM etiquette or lingo/communication protocols are different too?

It's kinda like driving theory test. It's different in different countries. That's kinda why I posted my questions in the UK section of the form to hopefully get some "local" advise but maybe the locals all hangout in different places?

 

[kayasaman]

Ham radio APRS is public and uses the unconnected mode in the AX.25 packet radio protocol. I don't think there is any way to limit it to certain stations.
Hams put up internet connected gateways that monitor the APRS frequency that is used where they are.
If you wanted only certain people to be able to see it you would need to use some frequency other than 144.39, or whatever frequency is commonly used in the UK, and build your own gateways and web server. If everybody was nearby and within radio range of eachother you could do it without the internet.

Very interesting!

Like I said for home, I might start out with a Kenwood D75 which has everything on board and is pretty minimal. If I can build a system that will take the RF signal and output it through to the internet that would be a great lab to start off with. Once I know what I'm talking about and better versed in HAM infrastructure and hopefully communications too... I can begin taking this to the next level and coupling in my cell phone in trying to get this thing to work in a mobile scenario.
Just outputting GPS data to start with will be fine.....

Then later on when it comes down to building a proper 4x4 rig I can look at what's needed to install in that... ICOM 5200 with gateway? or Hotspot and then perhaps StarLink if going to places off grid

I'm kind of thinking of HAM like my Cisco background and knowledge of IP networks. Maybe it's wrong? But I think of the HAM as a computer then you have the repeater/reflector performing like a switch, then you have the gateway which is kind of like an IP gateway or router that gets you access to "external" networks.

Obviously the above is for voice and not data or packet transmissions but I guess you use a specific channel for that? 30MHz or so wasn't it?
- I need to re-go over the material as I'm still learning and new so things haven't sunk in yet.

I guess from here:

https://www.reddit.com/r/amateurradio/comments/1f6dh82

what I can tell is that it's a "simplex" connection that is a radio to radio call without the group or net formalities? - similar to CB or 2-way style comms

Like said, pretty new and not certified yet so just going over theory here as wanting to know what's what and how's how.....