NFPA recomendations of analog or digital

[radioman2001]

As asked, I am going to be reprogramming some radios, and was wondering if there any changes or is there a document that recommends analog or digital for fireground operations. In the last time I looked years ago NFPA was recommending analog and simplex for all fireground ops.
I am already looking to get away from repeated fire ground channels, and going strictly simplex. It's just a matter of digital or analog.

 

[BoxAlarm187]

If you haven't already seen it, this document provides a lot of information, including all of the applicable NFPA standards.

As an incident commander with a very robust system, the use of simplex is always my last choice in spite of what NPFA recommends.

 

[radioman2001]

Thanks for pointing this doc out I had already downloaded the document last evening, but havn't read through the whole thing yet.

"the use of simplex is always my last choice in spite of what NPFA recommends."

Why is that, is transmitting through a building and going however many miles to a repeater and back is better that maybe 100-200 ft directly?

Relying on an in building system that might fail as time of incident goes on?

What if the system goes FailSoft or fails completely in the middle of an incident? It does happen no matter how well the system was designed, and I have seen it.

After reading some more I go with NFPA 121 sections 9.3.1.3 and 9.3.1.4. and will make my recomendations that way.

 

[BoxAlarm187]

"the use of simplex is always my last choice in spite of what NPFA recommends."

Why is that, is transmitting through a building and going however many miles to a repeater and back is better that maybe 100-200 ft directly?

I don't like simplex because the transmissions are limited to the fireground, limiting situational awareness for dispatchers and other personnel who aren't in the immediate area. It also isn't recorded, so in the event something goes wrong, I don't have the recordings for fact finding. Furthermore, it requires the incident commander to divide his/her attention between two or more radios during critical incident, especially when there's a chance of stress-induced auditory exclusion occurring.

As a commander officer in my previous department answering 50,000 calls a year, we well-knew which buildings required the use of T/A, and planned accordingly for such.

All that said, in my current agency, our T/A channel is programmed next to our primary fireground channel so if we have to move due to in-building coverage, it's only one click for those effected.

 

[GTR8000]

I don't like simplex because the transmissions are limited to the fireground, limiting situational awareness for dispatchers and other personnel who aren't in the immediate area. It also isn't recorded, so in the event something goes wrong, I don't have the recordings for fact finding.

Our county solved that issue by putting a GPW 8000 receiver for each fireground channel at each of the 12 trunked system subsites. All are voted and the resources are on the consoles for the dispatchers to monitor, with MDC emergency enabled.

Furthermore, it requires the incident commander to divide his/her attention between two or more radios during critical incident, especially when there's a chance of stress-induced auditory exclusion occurring.

That's what a good operations officer is for, to monitor the nitty gritty fireground comms, while the IC is primarily concerned with the command channel i.e. link between him and the operations officer. A chief's aide also helps if the incident is that critical, one guy should not be running the whole show.

 

[BoxAlarm187]

Our county solved that issue by putting a GPW 8000 receiver for each fireground channel at each of the 12 trunked system subsites.

If only our budget would allow for that.

That's what a good operations officer is for, to monitor the nitty gritty fireground comms, while the IC is primarily concerned with the command channel i.e. link between him and the operations officer. A chief's aide also helps if the incident is that critical, one guy should not be running the whole show.

Before I took a chief officer role in my current department, I served as a full-time captain/chief's aide in my previous department, so I've experienced both sides of that. Where I am now, the incident will be significantly developed (or likely under control) before the IC will have the luxury of having an aide. In staffing-limited fire departments like ours, the IC *is* the running the whole show.

 

[RodStrong]

It's just a matter of digital or analog.

Our guys have a choice of several analog and digital simplexes for those interested in peeling off the trunking system. They can use whatever they want. You might consider giving them both and let them decide what they prefer to use.

 

[jeepsandradios]

a Few counties around us put a DVRS on each first due engine. Its on the local fire simplex channel with a talkgrp to the trunk system for logging and dispatch to monitor. Dispatch has ability to turn on remotely if it gets forgotten. works very well.

 

[radioman2001]

I have read the radios and for fireground there are 6 repeated shared (countywide) trunked groups, there are 4 digital simplex, one of which is encrypted and also shared with PD, and probably to satisfy NFPA 1221 an analog simplex.

Overall I apppreciate all the input, but things vary by department and policy.

Personally and this may vary by juristriction, the dispatchers don't need to know what's going on that's what Command is supposed to do. To me it sounds more like micro managing the fire scene remotely with wanting to know everyting real time, and unless you have a surplus of dispatchers who can sit on a channel and just listen to many operations all day long.

IMO incoming units should be talking to Command (or whoever is your POC at an incident) for assignment not a bunch of FF who are trying to fight a fire or control whatever the incident is. If your command structure is overloaded at a heavy scene that's where your span of control should change.

You can do what FDNY does (as mentioned above and BTW they encrypt it), which is enable a simplex analog carrier squelch (thats all they use for firegrounds for obvious reasons) to whatever frequency you want (trunked or otherwise) on demand. This will allow your recording for quality control, and allow others who NEED to know what's going on. If you have the money yea have at it with voters all around on you Fire Ground channels.

But getting back to the actual question I have been discussing this with our Officers who like most wouldn't know a digital, analog, repeater or simplex channel for another. There have been many instaces where I was asked why can't we boost the power of the portables (due to problems communicating at scenes). Well I said if your not talking 5-10 miles to a repeater (plus self interference) you won't need that much power.

Simplex is going to be the new SOG for us, and analog if we can get that channel assigned at each call. If not we can apply for some on our own.