NHSP troop A/B

[npdexplorer911]

I tried going a back in some discussions a few years and looked up in the database and noticed NHSP Troops A,B & C all have some encryption but from my understanding are not 100% full time encryption, is this correct? I do not travel home as often any more but I have not heard any radio traffic on Troop B or A at all.
Thanks
Greg
Sds100
Bcd536

 

[jmarcel66]

Hi Greg,

That would be correct. NHSP has encryption capability on all of there channels, but generally only use it if necessary, which is rare. Only a few of their sensitive channels are 100% encrypted.

John

 

[npdexplorer911]

Thank you
I guess I need to have my scanner on longer while home or stay a little longer.

 

[GraniteScanner]

Units are usually the one who go enc as they can select on their end. However earlier this year (July 4th ) Troop D went E on dispatch for the day.
Like John said it happens but its rare.

 

[jmfirefighter]

Units are usually the one who go enc as they can select on their end. However earlier this year (July 4th ) Troop D went E on dispatch for the day.
Like John said it happens but its rare.

Sometimes it's as simple as the dispatcher hitting the encryption button accidentally. Then all the units with no encryption that use the Troop Frequencies (Fire Marshall's Office, Fish and Game) start calling and complaining. Ooops.

 

[12dbsinad]

I tried going a back in some discussions a few years and looked up in the database and noticed NHSP Troops A,B & C all have some encryption but from my understanding are not 100% full time encryption, is this correct? I do not travel home as often any more but I have not heard any radio traffic on Troop B or A at all.
Thanks
Greg
Sds100
Bcd536

Not sure what scanner you are trying to use, but these systems now use Linear Simulcast Modulation or LSM. Older scanners can have a difficult time with this, although you should still hear something even if it's garbled. This is what really forced the old Astro Spectras out of use quickly.

 

[jmfirefighter]

NHSP only runs LSM/CQPSK on Troop C and soon to be Troop F. All the other troops are still C4FM.

 

[12dbsinad]

NHSP only runs LSM/CQPSK on Troop C and soon to be Troop F. All the other troops are still C4FM.

Thanks. I must be thinking of Rock SO and the others. I'm sure it's in the works..

 

[jmfirefighter]

Rock SO and many simulcast P25 agencies in NH are running LSM/CQPSK. Aside from Troop E, C, and the soon to be three Troop F zones, none of the other Troop channels are simulcast so there would be no advantage to changing modulations unless they decide to simulcast those troops. Even E still runs C4FM although it's simulcast. It's not a trivial switch when dealing with a fleet and statewide Interoperability.

 

[12dbsinad]

Rock SO and many simulcast P25 agencies in NH are running LSM/CQPSK. Aside from Troop E, C, and the soon to be three Troop F zones, none of the other Troop channels are simulcast so there would be no advantage to changing modulations unless they decide to simulcast those troops. Even E still runs C4FM although it's simulcast. It's not a trivial switch when dealing with a fleet and statewide Interoperability.

What’s the big deal about switching to LSM? Ain’t really that hard of an undertaking, radios made in the last 10 years support it.

 

[jmfirefighter]

What’s the big deal about switching to LSM? Ain’t really that hard of an undertaking, radios made in the last 10 years support it.

It's not the fact the radios can't do it. You're talking about updating every law enforcement radio in the State. At least 600 or more radios just at state police. Then all the spare/deployable crap which is a few hundred radios. And then all the locals for Interoperability.

Not only that, it's also expensive to do on the systems side. To do it properly, you have to have the system engineered. Then you have civil work at the tower sites. Motorola won't certify coverage unless you use their low-PIM duplexers, coax, and antennas. $$$$$$. I believe the Troop C and F upgrades were around $400,000 and that's with the State radio guys doing all the labor at the tower sites.

 

[12dbsinad]

It's not the fact the radios can't do it. You're talking about updating every law enforcement radio in the State. At least 600 or more radios just at state police. Then all the spare/deployable crap which is a few hundred radios. And then all the locals for Interoperability.

Not only that, it's also expensive to do on the systems side. To do it properly, you have to have the system engineered. Then you have civil work at the tower sites. Motorola won't certify coverage unless you use their low-PIM duplexers, coax, and antennas. $$$$$$. I believe the Troop C and F upgrades were around $400,000 and that's with the State radio guys doing all the labor at the tower sites.

Why do you need to replace every portable radio? Every SP unit I’ve seen is already carrying Apx series. Anything older is no longer supported and boat anchors.

As far as the sites, what are they running? quantars? Sounds like stuff needs to be upgraded regardless. Guess I need to move to NH and get a job with the State if this is a big deal!

 

[jmfirefighter]

Why do you need to replace every portable radio? Every SP unit I’ve seen is already carrying Apx series. Anything older is no longer supported and boat anchors.

As far as the sites, what are they running? quantars? Sounds like stuff needs to be upgraded regardless. Guess I need to move to NH and get a job with the State if this is a big deal!

I didn't say the subscribers needed to be updated from a replacement standpoint. Let me rephrase: every radio in the state (SP, Local, County, F&G, FMO, HSEM) needs to be reprogrammed. EVERY RADIO IN THE STATE NEEDS TO BE PHYSICALLY TOUCHED. For agencies not fortunate enough to have an in-house shop, this COSTS MONEY. It's not a trivial matter, period. They can't just OTAP the radios and call it good.

The infrastructure on the mountains is GTR based, however the duplexers, coax, and antennas are were not replaced when the Quantars were replaced. Without the Motorola engineering and LOW-PIM gear, the coverage will not be certified. Again, it's costly.

Are you an actual public safety radio technician that works on complex P25 systems and deals with the budgeting, operational matters, and statewide law enforcement interoperabillity? If not, then you have NO clue what you're talking about.

 

[12dbsinad]

I didn't say the subscribers needed to be updated from a replacement standpoint. Let me rephrase: every radio in the state (SP, Local, County, F&G, FMO, HSEM) needs to be reprogrammed. EVERY RADIO IN THE STATE NEEDS TO BE PHYSICALLY TOUCHED. For agencies not fortunate enough to have an in-house shop, this COSTS MONEY. It's not a trivial matter, period. They can't just OTAP the radios and call it good.

The infrastructure on the mountains is GTR based, however the duplexers, coax, and antennas are were not replaced when the Quantars were replaced. Without the Motorola engineering and LOW-PIM gear, the coverage will not be certified. Again, it's costly.

Are you an actual public safety radio technician that works on complex P25 systems and deals with the budgeting, operational matters, and statewide law enforcement interoperabillity? If not, then you have NO clue what you're talking about.

Yeah, I deal with large systems everyday. Have been for 50 years. I guess your definition of radio complexity and mine are completely different. This would be a walk in the park for my area. Hell, I'd love to run all conventional again!

I didn't mean to ruffle your feathers. We can call it complex for NH's sake.

 

[jmarcel66]

I would say New Hampshire's system is complex to a point. It's tied to a Core, has numerous sites, with more than one repeater network, several are simulcast, and multiple agencies tied into it. It is only lacking the number of repeaters and trunk controllers. The number of repeaters (or bases) is relative too as most sites are running multiple conventional repeaters/bases for their specific agencies.

What makes the system in this conversation complex is the need to program over 10,000 radios, most not owned by the state. There is no OTAP, and even if there was, it would be limited to about 1000-2000 of the 10k radios. The locals, counties, etc. are on their own to program them. They're going to rely on a handful of radio shops that will be charging top dollar to do the jobs. I can say with 100% certainty (personally) that any portable/mobile radios not already programmed to LSM after the repeaters have been reprogrammed to LSM will have problems. Even if you programmed the Mobiles/Portables ahead of time in preparation for the switch, you're still working out the logistics for thousands of radios.

The reality is the logistics of the number of radios with access to the NHSP system, without OTAP makes it a big deal. It's already happening with Troop F. It's going to continue every time it's done.

 

[12dbsinad]

I would say New Hampshire's system is complex to a point. It's tied to a Core, has numerous sites, with more than one repeater network, several are simulcast, and multiple agencies tied into it. It is only lacking the number of repeaters and trunk controllers. The number of repeaters (or bases) is relative too as most sites are running multiple conventional repeaters/bases for their specific agencies.

What makes the system in this conversation complex is the need to program over 10,000 radios, most not owned by the state. There is no OTAP, and even if there was, it would be limited to about 1000-2000 of the 10k radios. The locals, counties, etc. are on their own to program them. They're going to rely on a handful of radio shops that will be charging top dollar to do the jobs. I can say with 100% certainty (personally) that any portable/mobile radios not already programmed to LSM after the repeaters have been reprogrammed to LSM will have problems. Even if you programmed the Mobiles/Portables ahead of time in preparation for the switch, you're still working out the logistics for thousands of radios.

The reality is the logistics of the number of radios with access to the NHSP system, without OTAP makes it a big deal. It's already happening with Troop F. It's going to continue every time it's done.

Why does the NHSP have to worry about every radio in the State? All these agencies talk and use SP channels? Can they not do any changes in fear people may need to reprogram their radios? There are changes that happen all the time, including interference issues and frequency changes, especially VHF since it's such a CF. How do you guys deal with that? Keeping up with programming and updates should always be ongoing as things change all the time.

I dunno, seems like a mountain out of a mole hill in regards to upgrading to LSM on a very simple conventional system.

 

[jmfirefighter]

Why does the NHSP have to worry about every radio in the State? All these agencies talk and use SP channels? Can they not do any changes in fear people may need to reprogram their radios? There are changes that happen all the time, including interference issues and frequency changes, especially VHF since it's such a CF. How do you guys deal with that? Keeping up with programming and updates should always be ongoing as things change all the time.

I dunno, seems like a mountain out of a mole hill in regards to upgrading to LSM on a very simple conventional system.

It's called interoperability.

 

[12dbsinad]

It's called interoperability.

Plenty of changes happen in NH to affect interop all the time, both police AND fire. Just look at the LRFMA change and the numerous fire changes in Strafford, Carroll and Rockingham counties just to name a very few. Many updated large area fire networks, Seacoast fire, etc, etc all updated to simulcast, repeaters, new freqs, the list goes on. The fire side of things certainly relies way more on wide area MA then any police agency on a regular basis.

So for some reason the NHSP can't do relatively simple upgrades in regards to simulcast because of ALL these hurtles? Come one guys. It's called PLANNING and updating the State channel plan templete just like they do with everything else. You're making it sound like upgrades cannot be done because a bunch of radios will need to be reprogrammed (not even replaced). That's nonsense.

 

[jmfirefighter]

This is where you're incorrect. Things actually don't change that often in NH, especially with the template zones D and up. You're also comparing apples to oranges. The fire side is great at interoperability using the static interop channels like the VTACs and VFIREs, or their own operational channels like LRMFA and Seacoast Rock Tacs. Police side- not so much. They rely on the programming for each agency to be correct, and are far more apt to go to each other's day-to-day operational frequency than going to VLAW or VTAC, if they know how to change the channel at all. Cheshire County Sheriff's Office will come up on Troop C to respond to assist a trooper or for a hot call, etc.

Yep, it is called planning: Notifying partners. Making sure they are ready to go (have budget funds to pay the local radio shops, or that someone from the state can program their radios for them). Pushing out the new codeplug template to the radio shops. Touching every state police radio in the state. Having staff and good weather to install all the equipment at the radio sites since the state does not subcontract it out. Not one thing I've said indicated that upgrades to the simulcast can't be done- all I've said is that it's not a trivial matter. It's not just flipping and switch and telling everyone else that the state changed and they need to change too. Months of planning went into Troop C's change from C4FM to CQPSK/LSM.

Maybe in your area it is as easy as just flipping the switch and saying GTFO, but that's not how it is in NH.

 

[12dbsinad]

This is where you're incorrect. Things actually don't change that often in NH, especially with the template zones D and up. You're also comparing apples to oranges. The fire side is great at interoperability using the static interop channels like the VTACs and VFIREs, or their own operational channels like LRMFA and Seacoast Rock Tacs. Police side- not so much. They rely on the programming for each agency to be correct, and are far more apt to go to each other's day-to-day operational frequency than going to VLAW or VTAC, if they know how to change the channel at all. Cheshire County Sheriff's Office will come up on Troop C to respond to assist a trooper or for a hot call, etc.

Yep, it is called planning: Notifying partners. Making sure they are ready to go (have budget funds to pay the local radio shops, or that someone from the state can program their radios for them). Pushing out the new codeplug template to the radio shops. Touching every state police radio in the state. Having staff and good weather to install all the equipment at the radio sites since the state does not subcontract it out. Not one thing I've said indicated that upgrades to the simulcast can't be done- all I've said is that it's not a trivial matter. It's not just flipping and switch and telling everyone else that the state changed and they need to change too. Months of planning went into Troop C's change from C4FM to CQPSK/LSM.

Maybe in your area it is as easy as just flipping the switch and saying GTFO, but that's not how it is in NH.

Sounds complicated.

Funny that many County Sheriffs offices went LSM not long ago like Rock, Strafford and Carroll to name a few. I wonder how they did it??