Niles observations and Qs

[whacker]

This is kind of a followup to a thread I posted back in July, regarding UHF digital radio usage (452 MHz range) in Niles.

I had observed that I was no longer receiving Niles Dial-A-Ride normally, but instead heard digital control signals on their freqs. What I learned soon after that (after a tour through their facility while attending a job interview on site) was that they had indeed changed out the radios for their transit service to some type of digital units. All I really saw was a Kenwood control head, and the personnel on site couldn't really say what the system name was. Changeover apparently occurred in March or April. No longer monitor-able conventionally, but both mobiles and repeater freqs are some sort of digital (not MPSCS). Just a guess, but probably something similar to MotoTrbo (gotta read up on that). Is there a Kenwood product in that class?

Also, just in the past few days while in Niles I've been hearing the same type of control signals on the Niles police dispatch frequency (453.975). I know in the past they've swapped functions between that freq and 453.050, but all the time I was in Niles and monitoring I never picked up one comm in the clear, which is very unusual. There's normally a fair amount of city police radio traffic.

Any of you experts in the area have any insight on this? Thanks in advance!

 

[W8RMH]

I know there are some taxi companies using a MDT type dispatch system that sends the address to a screen in the taxi without using voice which prevents the competition from listening and jumping their calls.

 

[whacker]

Law enforcement here in Michigan (all those who choose to participate, and that includes nearly all agencies by now) already have the capability for digital terminals in their vehicles through the existing MPSCS features (the well-known state-wide 800 MHz trunked system). Niles PD is equipped with and has the capability to use MPSCS, but apparently retains its legacy UHF system (453 MHz) for primary functions. I'm just concerned with the possibility that they're going to make changes to that system such that they will be un-monitor-able. I will have to keep an ear out for developments whenever I'm over there.

 

[whacker]

On a brief outing to Niles, tried once again to monitor 453.975 for PD dispatch. All I heard was digital control-style tone.

I wish there was an article or something authoritative to read about any/all agencies who may have taken a standard, legacy type radio system and changed it over to something digital on the same frequencies, no trunking. The only example I'm remotely familiar with is Mototrbo, and I don't know much about that. Other than encryption (which this is not), it seems like this might simply be an effort to render communications unmonitorable, without going to an available state-wide digital system like the one here in Michigan (MPSCS). But they still have to swap out their radios for new ones. I wonder what the cost advantage might be, or overall what the rationale behind it is. Niles changed over their public transit radios to something digital, and when I had a chance to pose the question to someone admittedly non-technical, the only thing they could add to the mix was that they wanted to have a system that had a "panic button" type feature for the drivers. Seems like a lot of money for something with very limited need.

And what about Niles PD? When they just this past year gained the ability to at least simulcast on MPSCS, they seem to likely also have gone the route of getting another all-new discrete radio system, unless I'm really jumping the gun here.

So please post your thoughts and observations on whether Niles PD may or may not have a new system, or you can no longer pick up in-the-clear transmissions, or maybe you've read an article in the Daily Star that I don't have access to. I'll be checking further via visits to Niles, but this is a mystery I'd like to solve.

 

[chidd_88]

Wirelessly posted (Opera/9.80 (BlackBerry; Opera Mini/7.1.32051/28.3392; U; en) Presto/2.8.119 Version/11.10)

Just yesterday I heard chatter on a Niles pd channel, but it was a few words and that was it. That's the first I ever heard anyone say anything on the channel. Ill have to look it up and post it. But even from South Bend I can't get anything out of Niles. I have a better chance of picking up Michigan City

 

[whacker]

Thanks chidd88, for the input.

I've just done some reading about Kenwood products, and based on my brief contact with the Niles Dial-A-Ride office this past summer, I have a hunch that they are using Kenwood NXDN products, which is a Digital Mobile Radio spec they developed with ICOM, which is similar but different to Motorola's TRBO product (in use at the Four Winds Casino). No clue about Niles PD, but if I ever have the chance I'll ask someone in person or try to take a look at a radio up close.

Hey chidd88, while I may have your ear, is there anything special happening with South Bend's PD radio? Changes, etc.? I know St. Joe county went Safe-T (and rebanding of that system has occurred), but any progress in that area with SBPD? Just curious, and thanks.

 

[chidd_88]

Wirelessly posted (Opera/9.80 (BlackBerry; Opera Mini/7.1.32051/28.3392; U; en) Presto/2.8.119 Version/11.10)

Yeah, South Bend PD have fully switched to the 800 in August I believe. Everything so far is running smoothly. Only comms on conventional are personal chit chat or street 211 on channel 3 talking to SBPD dispatch. Other than that, South Bend is on Safe-t. As for Niles, I believe it was 453.95 that I heard some chatter. Ill set those to priority and see if anyone else keys up.

 

[whacker]

Thanks, chidd88.

453.950 is the Public Works channel for Niles, and that's what their snowplows use to communicate, which should be pretty busy around now. 453.050 is another one that used to be used for PD, but now it's channel 2, and sometimes has some sort of data noise with occasional voice comms on it.

 

[chidd_88]

Wirelessly posted (Opera/9.80 (BlackBerry; Opera Mini/7.1.32051/28.3392; U; en) Presto/2.8.119 Version/11.10)

Ahh ok then. I know on I've heard on the Michigan Public safety call Niles city before, I believe it was the South dispatch. Any idea if Benton Harbor/Saint Joesph are still using conventional or have fully switched. I heard a couple days ago a call for St Joesph city pd an fire for a full arrest on digital but that's the first I've ever heard them. I'm interested in getting cities and towns near the shore once summer comes around and my best bet is digital bcuz conventional sucks past Laporte county. Altho I can get Michigan City PD tho faint it is understandable.

 

[joshua80]

All police in berrien county with the exception of
The city of niles are on the mpscs 800 system.

 

[whacker]

Hey, how 'bout it joshua80? Since you list Niles as your location, what's going on with Niles PD? Are you still hearing communications in the clear, or have they gone independently digital, like Dial-A-Ride?

 

[joshua80]

Whacker your guess is as good as mine. But the way
I see it the city of niles shares a radio system. If you look all frequency
Tags are multi talk shared by police/fire/public works.
If you look at the database, it shows public works are using
A mototrbo radio system now. Which might explain the why we dont here
The police or dial a ride anymore. Seems like they have switched to that radio system
As well. Why I dont know. But I have since deleted them from my scanner.

 

[whacker]

Well, I was aware that Dial-A-Ride had changed something early this year when I could no longer monitor them. I interviewed for a job there and asked a staff member directly about changes in their radio system, and even eyeballed the unit at the desk, which was a Kenwood unit. The person on duty was not technically knowledgeable about the system, except to comment that they had wanted a "panic button" capable setup for the drivers, and now they had one. It was mentioned that they had received a grant that provided the funds for the new system. My subsequent reading and investigation had led me to the theory that they switched to a Kenwood Nexedge series system (NXDN-based, not MotoTRBO). But this is just my theory.

As far as Niles PD goes, they just became unmonitorable a couple of weeks ago in my experience, although I had not been spending a lot of time scanning while visiting Niles, and the PD was not usually super chatty on the radio anyway while I was there. But now all I hear on 453.975 is (what sounds like) digital control noise. Whether they've got a city-wide MotoTRBO system of their own shared with Public Works is still not fully established to me, but I doubt it is tied with the transit system. Just my opinion due to current observation. I'll try to do some more digging about this.

It's also another instance where, why did this city choose to not go with MPSCS, especially since just this past year there was an effort to have more interoperability with St. Joe Co. Indiana, and Niles could probably benefit from that. Just another head scratcher, I suppose. It could have to do with not being able to (easily) monitor Nexedge and TRBO, whereas you can monitor MPSCS with a portable scanner.

 

[jaspence]

Niles PD

The big issue was money. Their system is/was patched to the MPSCS system.

 

[whacker]

I was aware they had MPSCS capability through patching, although that was with their existing analog setup.

So it was cheaper for them to get an all-new DMR radio system (whether TRBO or Nexedge) than to go with MPSCS?

 

[jaspence]

They had to go narrow band and decided to go digital with the new equipment. The 800 link is down but should be back up in a week or so. Mototrbo equipment is quite a bit less expensive than the MPSCS radios if that is the digital format they have. By having their own system, they will probably avoid the microphone charge from the state.

 

[whacker]

Oh, yeah, narrowbanding! I had not thought how that would affect things here locally. But still, whatever their existing systems were, could they not simply be reprogrammed to comply, or did they simply want to take advantage of the expanded feature set of the new DMR radios (double the channels per freq, texting, data, etc.?) and take the plunge? I imagine their analog units were pretty old.

 

[garryd451]

until 3 04 weeks ago I was getting Niles City on 453-975, now all I get is ocassional loud static!

 

[KC8OVZ]

Niles has gone to the new Kenwood NXDN Digital system on UHF like Cass County who is now on VHF NXDN Digital!

 

[whacker]

At least I can listen to Cass Co. on the MPSCS patch (TG 3148 -- they're pretty dull though). I hope Niles PD's patchover goes live again sometime soon.

Does the city of Cassopolis have their own PD, or do they just rely on the county force?