NIST proposed budget includes shutdown of WWV and WWVH
- Thread starter Thunderknight
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That applies to ground stations as well.
NIST's cutbacks probably won't save the US Govt. quite enough money, so maybe they'd also like to cut back on the launching and maintenance of communication satellites and GPS systems. After all, smoke signals are a much cheaper means of communication. They can have some of our smoke if they want it, because it has recently caused [cough, cough, sputter] an official state of emergency in BC. Our current air quality is said to be worse than that of Beijing. My radio reception over the past week has gotten far worse than it usually is, too; I wonder if the smoke is doing that.
mmckenna
I ♥ Ø
I hear the concern about WWV/WWVH getting shut down. It's got it's place, but we need to be realistic.
At one time critical systems used WWVB(mostly) for accurate clocking. Telephone network, dispatch centers, etc. all had WWVB receivers to clock to. Companies like Spectracom have end-of-lifed those products in favor of GPS timing.
Sure, there's some legacy stuff out there that is probably still running, but if any user is serious about needing accurate timing, they are not going to rely on WWV or WWVH.
Even marine users have better resources. GPS systems are plentiful and inexpensive. The need for accurate clocks for navigation was superseded a long time ago by better technologies.
For hobbyists, WWV and WWVH was an easy station to receive. Most of us grew up hearing it. We occasionally used it for setting our own watches and clocks. It's got it's place for determining which bands are "open".
But none of those uses are "mission critical". WWV isn't going to save the day. With most shortwave broadcasters dropping out in favor of other means of communications, we've all had to know this day was coming.
I use precision timing for some stuff at work. It's been decades since WWVB was considered a viable alternative. Due to propagation issues, the clocking could only synchronize a few times a day, so the rest of the time is was a fairly accurate free running clock.
We've even got a CDMA clocking source running for some unknown reason (old time network guys like their junk) pulling timing off a CDMA cell site (which gets it's time off a GPS receiver).
But all our stuff is GPS based. A few distributed GPS clocks with NTP servers works. Critical systems have their own GPS antennas. Even the T-1/PRI links I have to the various carriers are sync'd to GPS.
I don't see this as a "cost savings move" for the government. I see it as what it appears to be on the surface, NIST realizes that continuing to run WWV/WWVH for the benefit of a small band of hobbyists isn't a wise investment of their time or money.
Sort of like getting rid of the Steamboat Inspection Service. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steamboat_Inspection_Service
I'm sure there are those steam fans that think this was a major mistake, too. But time and technology keeps on moving.
If you have a real need for accurate timing and frequency, then there are better sources. You can drop on over to e-Bay and pick up GPS clocks, GPS based frequency standards, etc. for reasonably cheap.
If WWV -really- is critical to the hobby, then maybe amateur radio/ARRL/whoever need to band together and find a way to run a similar service themselves. I can think of a few hams that would get a kick out of running their own atomic clocks.
At one time critical systems used WWVB(mostly) for accurate clocking. Telephone network, dispatch centers, etc. all had WWVB receivers to clock to. Companies like Spectracom have end-of-lifed those products in favor of GPS timing.
Sure, there's some legacy stuff out there that is probably still running, but if any user is serious about needing accurate timing, they are not going to rely on WWV or WWVH.
Even marine users have better resources. GPS systems are plentiful and inexpensive. The need for accurate clocks for navigation was superseded a long time ago by better technologies.
For hobbyists, WWV and WWVH was an easy station to receive. Most of us grew up hearing it. We occasionally used it for setting our own watches and clocks. It's got it's place for determining which bands are "open".
But none of those uses are "mission critical". WWV isn't going to save the day. With most shortwave broadcasters dropping out in favor of other means of communications, we've all had to know this day was coming.
I use precision timing for some stuff at work. It's been decades since WWVB was considered a viable alternative. Due to propagation issues, the clocking could only synchronize a few times a day, so the rest of the time is was a fairly accurate free running clock.
We've even got a CDMA clocking source running for some unknown reason (old time network guys like their junk) pulling timing off a CDMA cell site (which gets it's time off a GPS receiver).
But all our stuff is GPS based. A few distributed GPS clocks with NTP servers works. Critical systems have their own GPS antennas. Even the T-1/PRI links I have to the various carriers are sync'd to GPS.
I don't see this as a "cost savings move" for the government. I see it as what it appears to be on the surface, NIST realizes that continuing to run WWV/WWVH for the benefit of a small band of hobbyists isn't a wise investment of their time or money.
Sort of like getting rid of the Steamboat Inspection Service. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steamboat_Inspection_Service
I'm sure there are those steam fans that think this was a major mistake, too. But time and technology keeps on moving.
If you have a real need for accurate timing and frequency, then there are better sources. You can drop on over to e-Bay and pick up GPS clocks, GPS based frequency standards, etc. for reasonably cheap.
If WWV -really- is critical to the hobby, then maybe amateur radio/ARRL/whoever need to band together and find a way to run a similar service themselves. I can think of a few hams that would get a kick out of running their own atomic clocks.
No doubt better time keeping mechanisms exist. That being said, there is both a nostalgic aspect to the NIST sights and to be sure, they make a great "quick and dirty" beacon location which which to check out a radio / antenna setup. I'd be sorry to see them go.
mmckenna
I ♥ Ø
I agree, I'm sad to see it go (if it does go). I grew up with my grandfather using WWV to set clocks. The sound of it still brings back some good memories of him.
I'd like to see the ARRL or some other amateur radio group take it on, though. Seems like it could be built in to the beacon systems that are out there. Probably wouldn't be hard to update the FCC rules to make it totally legal.
About 40 years ago, an uncle took my father and I to the USN Observatory. Security was pretty tight as it was not a general tour, but of the lab/office where he worked on cesium clocks. He was a Chief or something in the Coast Guard. As I was young, I received the simplified explanation of cesium clocks as he showed us something he was working on. He also advised of leap seconds, which seemed suspicious to me at 10, so he had to explain the earth and its rotation issues. Well, not an issue just compensation of such. I remember that I suddenly became concerned as to what would happen if something happened to this cesium clock. He assured me that there was more than one clock. hahaha
That was also the first time I saw a relatively small computer with something in particular painted on the side. "Shoot Here" with a ring or two to identify the spot. I had more questions. hahaha
Maybe I need my own cesium clock.
That was also the first time I saw a relatively small computer with something in particular painted on the side. "Shoot Here" with a ring or two to identify the spot. I had more questions. hahaha
Maybe I need my own cesium clock.
mmckenna
I ♥ Ø
majoco
Stirrer
Don't shoot the messenger, it's still only a proposal. Perhaps the hue and cry might persuade them otherwise, especially from the WWVB watch and clock synchro users. There could be just one frequency, or a reduced time service, anything would be better than nothing.
I have a couple of high-calibre oven controlled oscillators that I like to check against WWVH occasionally but I have to take the results with a very large grain of salt! CHU Canada is too far away to be any good.
The NMEA signal from a GPS receiver may display the time close enough but if you compare it to WWVH it's often a second or two behind, probably due to processing time more than anything else.
I can see we'll all have to budget for a GPS disciplined oscillator, they often come up on EPay, just watch for the remaining life.
I have a couple of high-calibre oven controlled oscillators that I like to check against WWVH occasionally but I have to take the results with a very large grain of salt! CHU Canada is too far away to be any good.
The NMEA signal from a GPS receiver may display the time close enough but if you compare it to WWVH it's often a second or two behind, probably due to processing time more than anything else.
I can see we'll all have to budget for a GPS disciplined oscillator, they often come up on EPay, just watch for the remaining life.
I never knew you could buy your own cesium clock. That's got to be the epitome of gadget freakery.
mmckenna
I ♥ Ø
There are "time geeks" out there that have this sort of stuff. Not my cup of tea, though.
https://www.wired.com/2007/12/time-hackers/
My requirement for analog over digital seems kind of tame now
That might work. I could see some hams taking an interest in overseeing the sites. Much like the folks who keep watch on the marine net at 14.300
I hear ya on that smoke. Seattle looked like LA in the Sixties because of it. Beautiful sunsets, though.
To bring it back to topic, it's $6.3 million annually, according to what I've read. It's not breaking the bank.
The US Gov't has a program -- started after 9/11 -- to keep certain MW transmitters on the air in case of massive grid failure or other massive natural disaster (Juan De Fuca 9 point earthquake, Yellowstone caldera, etc.). Apparently it has the transmitters supplied with emergency generators, and they are hardened against EMP. Nationwide program. I'm sure that program costs more than $6.3 million.
I can see where at least WWV could be used in an emergency, if even for government uses. The military still uses HF. The government and military are still aware of HF's value as a backup in certain circumstances.
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WWV/WWVH is a fundamental right! I demand a GPS Rubidium frequency standard as compensation.
hey but thats 6.3 million more for someone else--Honestly it Does,nt matter to govt anymore they will do do what they want no matter what others say--Govt has gone to far with their outreach
mmckenna
I ♥ Ø
Yep, but consider that nearly everyone owns or has easy access to a broadcast radio. It's a good investment because it benefits so many people.
On the other hand:
But how many people (other than hobbyists) have access to a short wave radio, and understand how to use it? With propagation and atmospheric noise issues, issues in heavy urban areas and lack of universal acceptance (compared to am/fm) the value of WWV as an emergency notification source is limited.
I'd think that there are many more NOAA capable radios out there in the hands of the public. NOAA is already a well established source of emergency alerts.
It has been awhile since I have seen one of those. They do need calibration and maintenance, but they work well.
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Living in the SF Bay Area, noise/interference is a real challenge. on 20m and 40m, an S7-S9 noise level isn't uncommon for me. Despite that, I can usually pick up one of the WWV frequencies any time of day or night even with a very modest antenna. As you mentioned though, those who have a SW radio and the requisite knowledge of propagation is the bigger hurdle.
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