NIST proposed budget includes shutdown of WWV and WWVH

[needairtime]

There's so many conservatives out there that simply place WWV in the redundancy department and want to see it dismantled so they have less taxes to pay.

The only thing about GPS that is "self-redundant" is that there are multiple GPS satellites out there that are independent of each other. Destroying all of them at the same time, including the ones on the other side of the Earth is unlikely (or we have a bigger problem on our hands.)

 

[KK4JUG]

There's so many conservatives out there that simply place WWV in the redundancy department and want to see it dismantled so they have less taxes to pay.

The only thing about GPS that is "self-redundant" is that there are multiple GPS satellites out there that are independent of each other. Destroying all of them at the same time, including the ones on the other side of the Earth is unlikely (or we have a bigger problem on our hands.)

I don't think it's "conservatives." Rather, it's simply people who have no knowledge of the impact of both the satellite and radio systems.

 

[fleef]

They cannot. Countless atomic clocks and wristwatches (i.e. Casio G-SHOCK) rely on the WWVB signal.

Exactly. And, not everyone utilizes GPS, and even GPS isn't reliable- the signal WE as regular citizens receive is inexact and out of sync. Even police depts GPS has a time delay... I know this just from listening to scanner traffic.

 

[K4EET]

I did not go through all of the pages to see if this had been mentioned before but, 31 October 2018 is when WWV and WWVH will go silent per this announcement:

https://www.nist.gov/pml/time-and-frequency-division/radio-stations/wwv

I had also contacted the director of public information for NIST and they told me that WWVB (the 60 kHz time signal for wrist watches, "atomic" clocks, etc.) will also be shut down under the current plans.

Dave

 

[Thunderknight]

I did not go through all of the pages to see if this had been mentioned before but, 31 October 2018 is when WWV and WWVH will go silent per this announcement:

https://www.nist.gov/pml/time-and-frequency-division/radio-stations/wwv

No, that is not correct. That is ONLY the Marine announcements that are generated by NWS and re-transmitted by NIST.

Quoting from tha that page:
"The National Weather Service Marine Storm Warning announcements, broadcast on WWV and WWVH since 1971 will be discontinued after October 31, 2018. Comments or questions about this change should be directed to the National Weather Service at..."

 

[Thunderknight]

Even police depts GPS has a time delay... I know this just from listening to scanner traffic.

I think that delay you refer to is more due to the reporting cycle of their AVL, or the software involved. Not the actual GPS signal being received at the vehicle.

The way AVL (automatic vehicle location) works is that the GPS signal is received at the car, either with an application on the in-car computer or a dedicated device, and then is processed and transmitted through cellular or radio to the dispatch or system as a location point. This can occur on a regular basis (e.g. every 2 minutes), on demand (polling), or when something changes (the vehicles lights and siren are turned on or a set speed is exceeded).
Depending on how that is setup, how often it reports, and how fast the vehicle is moving, that can cause the reported location to be out of sync with the real location. (e.g. if it reports only once every five minutes, and the car is driving 80 miles an hour, that is a big difference after 4 minutes and 50 seconds).

 

[K4EET]

No, that is not correct. That is ONLY the Marine announcements that are generated by NWS and re-transmitted by NIST.

Quoting from tha that page:
"The National Weather Service Marine Storm Warning announcements, broadcast on WWV and WWVH since 1971 will be discontinued after October 31, 2018. Comments or questions about this change should be directed to the National Weather Service at..."

Oh OK then. My mistake then. But the PIO for NIST must not have understood my question then because I had asked this very question about the time signals. I'll have to contact them again and seek a clarification to my eMail and their response. Thanks for the comment! Dave

 

[iMONITOR]

What is the status/future of WWVB in Boulder, Colorado? I had heard/read awhile ago that the feds have considered shutting down of WWVB in Boulder, Colorado. If they do what becomes of all the clocks and devices that set their time automatically from this signal?

As an example, I'm considering the purchase a MFJ-138RC station clock that sets its time from WWVB.

 

[CQ]

Guess my solar wrist watch wont update automatically after midnight every night and have to update manually every month or so like the old days. My biking watch gets its time from GPS and will continue to work until the chinese start blasting away at our satellites from the dark side of the moon.

 

[AK9R]

What is the status/future of WWVB in Boulder, Colorado? I had heard/read awhile ago that the feds have considered shutting down of WWVB in Boulder, Colorado.

The current administration has batted around budget proposals from the National Institute of Standards and Technology and its parent Department of Commerce that include a reduction in funding for the standard time broadcast stations (WWV, WWVH, and WWVB). So far, those budgets have not been approved.

If WWVB is turned off, your clocks that automatically update using the WWVB signal will no longer automatically update. Given that the US government has put millions (billions?) of dollars into a system of Global Positioning Satellites, which also provide a time signal over the air, maybe its time to move away from WWVB.

 

[mmckenna]

I agree, I think it's time. WWVB has it's place, but it's place is starting to be irrelevant. There's a number of ways to get accurate time signals that doesn't rely on the US Government running a dedicated transmitter 24x7 to support these clocks.

Through natural attrition, these clocks will get replaced. GPS chips are cheap. Pulling timing signals off cell sites (no SIM required) is easy.

But, I agree, it'll be an inconvenience, and no one wants to be the one who's put out. Maybe like "other" things, those that want to keep it can start a "GoFundMe" account, or maybe the companies selling these clocks can help fund the service.

Either way, I'll survive without it. Between GPS, my cell phone and NTP, I'm pretty well covered.

 

[nd5y]

This guy built a GPS based 60 kHz hotspot for his watch.
Micro Radio Time Station Keeps Watch in Sync

 

[mmckenna]

This guy built a GPS based 60 kHz hotspot for his watch.
Micro Radio Time Station Keeps Watch in Sync

Exactly. Innovation and ingenuity will overcome. Always does.

Same reason why most of us don't have hitching posts and watering troughs in front of all our homes, and outhouses out back.

 

[CQ]

This guy built a GPS based 60 kHz hotspot for his watch.
Micro Radio Time Station Keeps Watch in Sync

Just transition to SKYNET syncing and all your troubles will be over.

 

[AB9IL]

The idea of GNSS time distribution via 60 kHz hotspots is a fantastic idea. I can see a fair bit of demand for devices which can get satellite or phone network time, then provide 60 kHz or NTP time locally. At least with a local 60 kHz time beacon, our watches and wall clocks would continue to function without WWVB.

 

[Boombox]

I never understood the need for having a clock so accurate. Everybody has a computer or cell phone these days. Their clocks are accurate enough.

 

[majoco]

Well, yes, but.... GPS positions are based on time. Every time a GPS satellite goes over one of the ground stations, it's time is checked against a reference. Now we know that each GPS satellite has three rubidium (or better) time references so the ground stations hopefully have a standard that is an order of merit better - so where is their reference? The master station is on the Schriever AFB near Denver so they are probably getting their reference from NIST directly. Have you ever received a GPS signal from an antenna on your roof, sent it through your computer and shown the time? Then listen to WWV/WWVH and compare the two - there will be a few parts of a second difference.

The method by which you get your position from sometimes 8 or 9 satellites is solely based on time and the almanac which every satellite broadcasts regularly - your receiver knows where each satellite is from the almanac and then gets the time from all of the satellites it receives - does the sums and then calculates your position. So - yes, we do need accurate time - not to drive your car to the destination but to guide those fighter aircraft in flight and the targets they are aiming at.

 

[Thunderknight]

I never understood the need for having a clock so accurate. Everybody has a computer or cell phone these days. Their clocks are accurate enough.

The reason they are fairly accurate is because they set their time to outside sources. Cell sites use GPS. Computers use (mostly) network time. A Windows PC sets its time over the Internet. Most PCs drift if they are unconnected. We have PCs at work that are isolated from the Internet and the clocks on them are minutes off and have to be reset manually.

If you use one of the ham digital modes like FT8, second level accuracy is important.

 

[AK9R]

"Crisis" averted...or maybe not.

CQ Magazine is reporting that Congress has restored funding for the NIST time broadcasts:
CQ Newsroom: WWV Funding Restored, Centennial Preparations Continue

However, the bill referenced in CQ's article, H.R. 21, has only passed the House. It has not passed the Senate and it has not been signed into law by the President.

H.R.21 - 116th Congress (2019-2020): Consolidated Appropriations Act, 2019