NJ 700 MHz Systems: Is this a trend?

[665_NJ]

Is this a trend?

With the following NJ counties (Camden, Gloucester, Monmouth, Middlesex and Ocean) planning and or in the process of implementing their own 700MHz Trunk systems, will they be part and parcel of the greater NJ State Wide PSIC system?

Would the PSIC system cover those counties especially north Jersey who do not yet have their own 700 system?

Except for those few counties and municipalities that have their own lower frequency systems in place, Is it the trend to try to get as much if not all of the public safety statewide, especially the law enforcement sector state wide on board the 700 systems for state reason of “interoperability” and at the same time only have them disappear one by one from the scanning public and hobbiest?

It is getting interesting to see how things will pan out.


Max

PS: Forgive if this has be posted elsewhere, I am new to this. Thank You

 

[665_NJ]

The answer to these questions?

The answers to my questions were fond under this forum topic:
link: http://forums.radioreference.com/ne...261797-camden-countys-new-700-mhz-system.html

Unfortunately, our hobby is slip sliding away.!

Enough said. Thanks

Max Powers

 

[dwhite1762]

700 is going to be a National standard for all Public Safety .

Refer to here for info http://www.dhses.ny.gov/oiec/technical-resources/documents/ans-channel-naming-standard.pdf

There was a something I can't remember what but the White House got involved and set the 700 band for all Public Safety and I belive there was a date well in the future for all States to have this setup for interoprabilty.

 

[mike4164]

I just read that report that you posted the link to and all it talks about is Interop channels,not dispatch channels. If that is the case they can not use those channels for dispatch. When I was in the FDNY/EMS we were informed that these 700 Mhz channels were for the sole purpose of interops communications between departments for coordination at major incidents as well as for PD to speak to other departments in cases of pursuits and other jobs that were involving several jurisdictions. Unless there is something else in writing about this I would not worry about them using it for dispatch as there is no segment that states they can amend it to cover that.

Mike
Retired FDNY/EMS
Haz-Tac

 

[AlexC]

Counties are going to 700mhz because with the 700mhz spectrum a plan gives each county 12 700mhz pairs. With TDMA you end up with 22 talk paths.

This is why you are seeing counties in NJ jump on to 700mhz. With no more t-band licenses they have no real choice for places to go to get spectrum.

Alex

 

[Thunderknight]

AlexC has it close. The number of channel pairs depends on the population of the county, derived from something called the "CAPRAD Sort". But he is right in that there is new spectrum there. It is one of the few remaining options for large amounts of channels to build a new system.

As to 700 interop, there are designated interop channels (about 30), but that is only a small portion of the total 700 LMR spectrum available.
There are also channels for local use under Regional Planning Committee (RPC) assignment. These are assigned to users after a detailed techincal showing and justification of need. They are then licensed by the FCC on a site by site basis. In New Jersey, this would RPC8 (northern) or RPC28 (southern).
There are also channels for state use (or state/local use) that are under the control of each State. Those state use channels are blanket licensed to each state, they do not require a site-specific license. Finding specific users of them is a matter of searching the band - the FCC database will just show a single block for the state.

Just to clear up a few common misconceptions about 700:
There is no mandate to switch to 700 from a current system.
There is no mandate that all new systems must be on 700, although that is where much of the available spectrum is.
There is no mandate to use encryption on 700.
There IS a mandate to use digital on 700 (for spectrum efficency and re-use reasons), but the rules do NOT specify P25. Although that is by far the most common digital mode on 700.

 

[GTR8000]

Counties are going to 700mhz because with the 700mhz spectrum a plan gives each county 12 700mhz pairs. With TDMA you end up with 22 talk paths.

The 700 MHz spectrum is allocated based on a county's population, and is not evenly divided among the counties. The minimum allocation is 5 - 25 kHz blocks per county (10 - 12.5 kHz pairs), which is the average, however some counties have more than that. Cape May County has 14 - 25 kHz blocks (28 - 12.5 kHz pairs), for example, which is an enormous amount of spectrum compared with the average allocation. The allocation also varies by region, with the northern half of NJ being in Region 8 where the spectrum is in more demand, vs the southern half of NJ being in Region 28 where there is generally more spectrum available per county.

Here is the breakdown per Region/county:

Region 8
Bergen - 7 blocks of 25 kHz (14 blocks of 12.5 kHz)
Essex - 6 blocks of 25 kHz (12 blocks of 12.5 kHz)
Hudson - 5 blocks of 25 kHz (10 blocks of 12.5 kHz)
Hunterdon - 5 blocks of 25 kHz (10 blocks of 12.5 kHz)
Mercer - 7 blocks of 25 kHz (14 blocks of 12.5 kHz)
Middlesex - 8 blocks of 25 kHz (16 blocks of 12.5 kHz)
Monmouth - 7 blocks of 25 kHz (14 blocks of 12.5 kHz)
Morris - 5 blocks of 25 kHz (10 blocks of 12.5 kHz)
Passaic - 5 blocks of 25 kHz (10 blocks of 12.5 kHz)
Somerset - 6 blocks of 25 kHz (12 blocks of 12.5 kHz)
Sussex - 5 blocks of 25 kHz (10 blocks of 12.5 kHz)
Union - 5 blocks of 25 kHz (10 blocks of 12.5 kHz)
Warren - 5 blocks of 25 kHz (10 blocks of 12.5 kHz)

Region 28
Atlantic - 10 blocks of 25 kHz (20 blocks of 12.5 kHz)
Burlington - 10 blocks of 25 kHz (20 blocks of 12.5 kHz)
Camden - 9 blocks of 25 kHz (18 blocks of 12.5 kHz)
Cape May - 14 blocks of 25 kHz (28 blocks of 12.5 kHz)
Cumberland - 13 blocks of 25 kHz (26 blocks of 12.5 kHz)
Gloucester - 6 blocks of 25 kHz (12 blocks of 12.5 kHz)
Ocean - 11 blocks of 25 kHz (22 blocks of 12.5 kHz)
Salem - 6 blocks of 25 kHz (12 blocks of 12.5 kHz)

 

[mikemey]

If it were done by population then Bergen County should have the most allocations, as they're the most populous county.

There's no reason Cape May County needs 14 blocks.

 

[GTR8000]

If it were done by population then Bergen County should have the most allocations, as they're the most populous county.

There's no reason Cape May County needs 14 blocks.

It is done by population, that's a fact. I don't know why Middlesex County has one more block than Bergen, only the Region 8 committee can answer that question.

Keep in mind that the allocations are done within Regions, not within States. That's why the northern counties in Region 8 have less frequencies allocated than the southern counties in Region 28. The northern counties are competing with the five counties of NYC for allocations.

 

[adamr368]

And Burlington county will be headed in that direction within the next several years as well.

 

[902]

No simple answers to this...

I started to type out a few responses to this. They were very long and involved ragas which I chose not to post. Fear not, nothing was missed. There are no short answers because the question goes in several directions.

The packing algorithm takes terrain within the county, and calculates the reuse distance for each frequency based on the highest points. The number of frequencies are calculated based on census data for those counties. Unfortunately, the counties with the most population don't always get the most resources. That's why Sopranoland may get 7 channels while the cranberry bogs and Pine Barrens get 24. There can be some adjustments once there is a pattern of build-out, but basically the reuse protections are what keeps NPSPAC from becoming a garbage heap like VHF is.

As far as why you are seeing more of these systems - there's nowhere else to put any. 800 is completely consumed. T-Band... I won't start... Everything else has users heaped on top of each other, except for Low Band, which no one seems to want anymore.

 

[fineshot1]

Counties are going to 700mhz because with the 700mhz spectrum a plan gives each county 12 700mhz pairs. With TDMA you end up with 22 talk paths.

This is why you are seeing counties in NJ jump on to 700mhz. With no more t-band licenses they have no real choice for places to go to get spectrum.

Alex

in NJ there is much more to it than that. Most of the Counties and entities that are on
the UHF T Band need relief from the Digital TV Interference which has been real bad
and getting worse since the TV Stations Analog to Digital jump.

 

[RadioDitch]

Just to clear up a few common misconceptions about 700:

There IS a mandate to use digital on 700 (for spectrum efficency and re-use reasons), but the rules do NOT specify P25. Although that is by far the most common digital mode on 700.

The FCC rules do not specify P25, but the funding DOES. The homeland security full and matching grants which funded the majority of these new 700MHz systems (in NJ and MD at least) all very specifically mandated P25 Phase II TDMA upon completion of build out as part of the terms.

 

[902]

The FCC rules do not specify P25, but the funding DOES. The homeland security full and matching grants which funded the majority of these new 700MHz systems (in NJ and MD at least) all very specifically mandated P25 Phase II TDMA upon completion of build out as part of the terms.

There is an easter egg embedded in 90.535(a) that allows for secondary analog, too. The need for Phase II comes from section b efficiency requirements. Phase I won't meet that. The contradiction is that Phase II requires infrastructure, and we only see it in trunked systems (so far). It's direct mode is reverting to Phase I. Many of the early deployments can't do Phase II because the earlier fixed and subscriber equipment were not capable of TDMA operation.

Now, if I really wanted to stir the cauldron, I could say that NXDN would be especially compatible with how the narrowband channels are laid out and would be more efficient use of spectrum than P25 Phase II - AND - there would be no such thing as orphaned channels.

 

[RadioDitch]

Now, if I really wanted to stir the cauldron, I could say that NXDN would be especially compatible with how the narrowband channels are laid out and would be more efficient use of spectrum than P25 Phase II - AND - there would be no such thing as orphaned channels.

Would never happen. Neither Kenwood nor Icom make those kinds of American political campaign fund contributions.