Norfolk Southern 900 MHz Usage Question

[RaleighGuy]

Have never seen 900 MHz licenses for railroads before and curious how frequently they are used and what for. Several new 900 MHz frequencies granted for NS in NC this week.

 

[cbehr91]

Likely ATCS.

Advanced Train Control System - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[kruser]

Looking at the FCC site for call sign KNNT791, it looks like NS is using this license for "Automatic Equipment Identification (AEI)".

ATCS is very common in the 900 MHz band but usually does not operate in the 902 to 928 ISM band that this license is for.

 

[alabamarailfan]

@kruser is correct. The ATCS frequency pairs are 896-897 MHz and 935-936 MHz. Also, I believe the ATCS (radio code line) licenses are part of a ribbon license that the AAR requested and is not usually found for specific railroads any longer. However, AEI does still use licenses per railroads and is much lower power.

 

[nd5y]

Look at the radio service code. Radiolocation LN 902-928 MHz Location Narrowband (non-multilateration). That is usually for stuff like toll tag readers and RFID readers. I don't know what railroad equipment that would be.

 

[alabamarailfan]

Correct. This is AEI readers like this:

Spartan AEI Reader System | aeitag-1

www.aeitag.com

 

[kruser]

@kruser is correct. The ATCS frequency pairs are 896-897 MHz and 935-936 MHz. Also, I believe the ATCS (radio code line) licenses are part of a ribbon license that the AAR requested and is not usually found for specific railroads any longer. However, AEI does still use licenses per railroads and is much lower power.

If I'm not mistaken, there's a plan in place to relocate some of the ATCS 900 MHz frequencies for RCL to a new grouping of frequencies. Something to do with one of the 5G cellular bands I think. I think the change is to group the users together frequency wise and establish a small guard band between services (users). I don't know if this was approved by the FCC yet but the last I read, all the Class 1's and AAR were on board with the change as well as the cell carriers. I think several of the radios were also capable of the frequency changes making the cost to make the change minimal.

 

[JoshuaHufford]

If I'm not mistaken, there's a plan in place to relocate some of the ATCS 900 MHz frequencies for RCL to a new grouping of frequencies. Something to do with one of the 5G cellular bands I think. I think the change is to group the users together frequency wise and establish a small guard band between services (users). I don't know if this was approved by the FCC yet but the last I read, all the Class 1's and AAR were on board with the change as well as the cell carriers. I think several of the radios were also capable of the frequency changes making the cost to make the change minimal.

Do you know what the new frequencies in use would be?

 

[kruser]

Do you know what the new frequencies in use would be?

I'll see if I can find the source.
I'm thinking I read a PDF link in a message in the ATCS group at groups.io

 

[kruser]

Do you know what the new frequencies in use would be?

I'm not certain anything has been finalized but all the info is in the linked PDF at the FCC site.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwil_tSU6dvvAhWJWc0KHVOVDfIQFjAAegQIAxAD&url=https%3A%2F%2Fdocs.fcc.gov%2Fpublic%2Fattachments%2FDOC-363915A1.pdf&usg=AOvVaw0GTqOkMh4mGc4HNSE43oPU

Hopefully that link works!

It also does not contain any road specific frequencies yet and some frequencies are okay as they are. I didn't read into it a lot but I think the SD9 radios would still work if they do make the change.

This link should take you directly to the FCC page that has the PDF link about this.

Transitioning the 900 MHz Band to Enable Broadband Deployment

This document has been circulated for tentative consideration by the Commission at its open meeting. The issues referenced in this document and the Commission's ultimate resolution of those issues remain under consideration and subject to change

www.fcc.gov

 

[nd5y]

Also see 900 MHz LMR Band Plan - The RadioReference Wiki. It lists the 6 AAR channels (may be more in some areas). I don't know what will happen to them after rebanding.

 

[iceman977th]

I'm not certain anything has been finalized but all the info is in the linked PDF at the FCC site.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwil_tSU6dvvAhWJWc0KHVOVDfIQFjAAegQIAxAD&url=https%3A%2F%2Fdocs.fcc.gov%2Fpublic%2Fattachments%2FDOC-363915A1.pdf&usg=AOvVaw0GTqOkMh4mGc4HNSE43oPU

Hopefully that link works!

It also does not contain any road specific frequencies yet and some frequencies are okay as they are. I didn't read into it a lot but I think the SD9 radios would still work if they do make the change.

This link should take you directly to the FCC page that has the PDF link about this.

Transitioning the 900 MHz Band to Enable Broadband Deployment

This document has been circulated for tentative consideration by the Commission at its open meeting. The issues referenced in this document and the Commission's ultimate resolution of those issues remain under consideration and subject to change

www.fcc.gov

I glanced through the FCC Fact sheet on the 900MHz transition. Page 44 mentions cancellation of the current nationwide license by Anterix, who is the holder of the ATCS channel license, and in turn, AAR will be licensed for use of a paired wideband channels between 896-896.125 and 935-935.125. Whether this means the ATCS channels will transition to that split, which is just below the current ATCS channels, or if this means they will change technologies, I'm not sure yet.

Mike

 

[radioman2001]

We had a license for 900 to do with automatic car registration. More common for frieght than comutter rail.

 

[kb1kvd]

Our commuter railroad we use 900 MHz for our code system and crossing recorders.

 

[InspireWaukesha87]

Most likely change in technology BNSF is migrating off ATCS radio codeline here is a link to what BNSF is doing

Your Solution to migrating your Centralized Traffic Control off 900 MHz | Meteorcomm

Meteorcomm can help you manage changes needed as a result of 900 MHz changes by the Federal Communications Commission.

meteorcomm.com

 

[iceman977th]

BNSF uses a mix of technologies so unifying them into a single technology makes sense. But as far as NS goes, with how much money is invested in their microwave and codeline networks, I don’t see them doing a mass migration any time soon, but I could be wrong. Why would the FCC give the AAR 250khz of spectrum across 20 total channels for no uses? And what will the railroads do in non-PTC CTC territory like branch lines?

Mike

 

[ArkTex]

BNSF uses a mix of technologies so unifying them into a single technology makes sense. But as far as NS goes, with how much money is invested in their microwave and codeline networks, I don’t see them doing a mass migration any time soon, but I could be wrong. Why would the FCC give the AAR 250khz of spectrum across 20 total channels for no uses? And what will the railroads do in non-PTC CTC territory like branch lines?

Mike

As far as branch lines go I'd assume they have some framework to patch each other to their local Class I' system. Otherwise, maybe the current systems will be kept as a backup?

 

[RRR]

Most likely change in technology BNSF is migrating off ATCS radio codeline here is a link to what BNSF is doing

Your Solution to migrating your Centralized Traffic Control off 900 MHz | Meteorcomm

Meteorcomm can help you manage changes needed as a result of 900 MHz changes by the Federal Communications Commission.

meteorcomm.com

I have not heard of a single thing relating to NS moving off UHF to Satellite.

That is extremely expensive, and NS just completed PTC. If NS was going to change, they would have done so during this last change.

(Extremely costly, unfunded mandate)

Keep in mind, NS is underway with PSR, and is busy shedding locomotives, yards, people, and about to lease out more lines.

Changing frequencies is not that difficult, and is much more inexpensive.