NPS and USFS Changes

[es93546]

Here are some changes recently noted and either submitted to the database or already changed in the database.

Sequoia and Kings Canyon National Parks

171.1625 Tac 3, now a repeater - unknown location.

172.5000 Moro. This is assumed to be Moro Rock and the net (Frontcountry or Backcountry) it is associated with is unknown.

It is not known what tone is used for either of these.


U.S. Forest Service

This one is not my find, but by one of the database administrators.

167.9625 Region 5 Tactical 7

This probably won't show up until next year, following reprogramming of radios this winter. It is to replace NIFC Tac 2, which has previously listed as "R5 Crew Net." It is actually NIFC Tac 2. Three to four years ago, NIFC issued a directive that frequencies in the NIFC large incident system (NIFC System) were only to be used on Type 1 and Type 2 incidents after being assigned by the NIFC Comm Duty Officer. Region 5 did not follow that direction immediately and NIFC Tac 2 was being used by nearly every National Forest in California as sort of a default initial attack tactical. Tac 7 will correct that situation and will be substituted for that default initial attack tactical.

Background and Career Remembrance Info

Back in the 1970's, when I started working for the USFS in fire management, is when I first became aware of NIFC Tac 2, but it was then known as "R5 Crew Net." As far as I knew this was the first tactical in the Forest Service. Tactical traffic was mainly on Forest Net, simplex. Those were the days when repeaters were rare as well. Remote base stations provided comms for dispatch and ranger stations. Having all the traffic, both fire, admin and tactical (sometimes for more than one fire) was difficult. Leave it to Region 5 to come up with a solution, which was to get a separate tac channel. The term "crew net" is no longer applicable to this new frequency as there are now 4 national crew nets. They are not tacticals, but only for crew logistics only. Traffic between a crew and a crew member back at the crew buggy who is maintaining some chain saws is typical, with "when you bring up the 3rd saw, we need more bar oil too" being an example. Each hotshot crew has been assigned one of the channels along with a tone (national 16 tone list) so they don't have to hear the traffic of another crew, should a nearby crew be on the same channel.

Hope this helps.

 

[madrabbitt]

Region 5 did not follow that direction immediately

Somehow you literally just summed up Region 5.

 

[es93546]

Somehow you literally just summed up Region 5.

I worked in 3 USFS Regions and Region 5 was the best. I worked in Regions 3, 4 and 5 and in that order. 168.2000. Region 5 Crew Net, was first assigned to Region 5 and I think they had some sense of ownership over it. However, when it comes to radio use NIFC is king and R5 had to make a change. You may have noticed that NIFC Tac 2 was not being assigned to large incidents in California and lacking enough tacticals is a problem, even when you have 6 of them. This was because Tac 2 was being used for initial attack in R5.

 

[es93546]

I worked in 3 USFS Regions and Region 5 was the best. I worked in Regions 3, 4 and 5 and in that order. 168.2000. Region 5 Crew Net, was first assigned to Region 5 and I think they had some sense of ownership over it. However, when it comes to radio use NIFC is king and R5 had to make a change. You may have noticed that NIFC Tac 2 was not being assigned to large incidents in California and lacking enough tacticals is a problem, even when you have 6 of them. This was because Tac 2 was being used for initial attack in R5.

By the way, Region 4 was the worst of the three regions I worked in. Region 3 was starting to evolve toward a better region when I left in the early 1980's. They are doing a great job on letting some fires burn when naturally caused, but they face more Wildland Urban Interface than they have ever had. Region 5 had more people on the ground in permanent, rather than seasonal, personnel. Of course, now, with the huge budget cuts, all functions except fire, have very few people on the ground. A shame for sure.

 

[madrabbitt]

Its the California thing. CalFire does things their own way, and the federal agencies tend to listen and defer to that because, 99% of the time it works.

My two experiences with R5 have been polar opposites, but when i actually worked there, so many decisions were set in stone because "we do it this way because it works with a minimal amount of ****ing with things, and if it stops working, we find a new solution that does work" and I was 100% sold.

It was such a big difference from "we do it this way because thats what the manual says, even if it doesn't work" and unfortunately, thats how things worked in so many other parts of the country.

 

[es93546]

I did not mean to post this in the L.A. Forum, I've asked administrators to move it to the statewide forum.

 

[madrabbitt]

By the way, Region 4 was the worst of the three regions I worked in. Region 3 was starting to evolve toward a better region when I left in the early 1980's. They are doing a great job on letting some fires burn when naturally caused, but they face more Wildland Urban Interface than they have ever had. Region 5 had more people on the ground in permanent, rather than seasonal, personnel. Of course, now, with the huge budget cuts, all functions except fire, have very few people on the ground. A shame for sure.

Now we're fully off topic, but, most of my federal career was in R2, specifically Colorado on the BLM side of the family.
I did one year in Region 4, and it was a big reason i left federal service.
Working for my state for years after, and we're R3, i have seen a large attitude change in this area, most notably in how they deal with larger lightning strike fires, and i've seen first hand on how changed attitudes towards reasonable containment over full suppression have helped forest health 1000%.

But California is something else. I had a 90 day assignment there on a CalFire/USFS investigation team, and i came home with so many ideas on how to make a lot of our policies more efficient.

 

[es93546]

Its the California thing. CalFire does things their own way, and the federal agencies tend to listen and defer to that because, 99% of the time it works.

My two experiences with R5 have been polar opposites, but when i actually worked there, so many decisions were set in stone because "we do it this way because it works with a minimal amount of ****ing with things, and if it stops working, we find a new solution that does work" and I was 100% sold.

It was such a big difference from "we do it this way because thats what the manual says, even if it doesn't work" and unfortunately, thats how things worked in so many other parts of the country.

R5 has more than 50% of the fire workload in the agency and has between 25-30% of the recreation workload. I don't know what percentage they have in "Lands," but think of the heavy workload in special use permits, as well as land exchanges and land purchases. Region 6 was the only region to beat them in timber management. So R5 tended to rise to the top of the stew and got a lot of attention. The other regions tended to manage by "we've always done it this way, we don't want to change." They were all suspicious of R5 and didn't care if something from there, that worked in more demanding circumstances, was being evaluated for use in their own region. I think R5 had more talented people, on average. I could go on, but I won't.

 

[B]

Love being a "fly on the wall" to both your conversations/experiences. Thank you very for the insight and sharing. Local Yokel here with only limited Cal Fire IMT experience.

 

[es93546]

Love being a "fly on the wall" to both your conversations/experiences. Thank you very for the insight and sharing. Local Yokel here with only limited Cal Fire IMT experience.

Thanks, it is all nearly completely off topic. I had to stop as I could go on and on. That's a problem with us retired types.

 

[es93546]

The season is winding down with fall upon us, so making a request for someone to monitor the new "Moro" repeater might find very little traffic on it. However, it would be helpful if someone in the Central Valley puts it in scanner and monitors it. I don't think it is linked to either the Frontcountry or Backcountry Nets, so traffic would be specific to a limited portion of the park. But, who knows? We can only monitor to find and answer and the best time to do so might not come until next spring/summer.

 

[vince48]

The season is winding down with fall upon us, so making a request for someone to monitor the new "Moro" repeater might find very little traffic on it. However, it would be helpful if someone in the Central Valley puts it in scanner and monitors it. I don't think it is linked to either the Frontcountry or Backcountry Nets, so traffic would be specific to a limited portion of the park. But, who knows? We can only monitor to find and answer and the best time to do so might not come until next spring/summer.

I will monitor the system this week, i'm in Visalia

 

[f40ph]

Tac 7 will correct that situation and will be substituted for that default initial attack tactical.

CAUTION: R5 Tac 4, 5, 6, and 7 will all be available for initial attack. Don't be too literal by assuming R5 TAC 7 will be THE default first up tac. I suspect they might go in numerical order issuing tac 4 first, etc. If a neighbor forest is using R5 tac 4, the adjacent forest might use R5 tac 5 and so on. All I'm saying is program/listen to them all and don't be surprised.

 

[es93546]

CAUTION: R5 Tac 4, 5, 6, and 7 will all be available for initial attack. Don't be too literal by assuming R5 TAC 7 will be THE default first up tac. I suspect they might go in numerical order issuing tac 4 first, etc. If a neighbor forest is using R5 tac 4, the adjacent forest might use R5 tac 5 and so on. All I'm saying is program/listen to them all and don't be surprised.

The source that passed this info on said Tac 7 will be used in every slot of every USFS program that now shows "NIFC Tac 2/R5 Crew Net." What you say is logical, but NIFC Tac 2 is in every National Forest primary zone or group, excepting 2 of the 18 NF's. I asked the same question through the person who has a contact where this info about Tac 7 and got this answer. I think maybe they are keeping Tac 4-6 available for Type 3 - 5 extended attack incidents. There is one exception, the Cleveland NF has Tacs 4-6 assigned to each of their 3 ranger districts for initial attack. They also have "NIFC Tac 2/R5 Crew Net" as channel 3, right below the Forest and Admin Nets, so Tac 7 will fill that slot next year.

EDIT: I've had the R5 tacs programmed in for a couple of decades now, back when they were all 173 MHz frequencies.

 

[vince48]

monitoring from yesterday

172.5​	C 123.0​	-104​	NFM​	6​	12:00:04 AM​	09/27/23 12:38 PM​	09/27/23 12:38 PM​	National Park Service​	Sequoia/Kings Canyon Parks​	Moro​	Conventional​
172.5​	C 123.0​	-88​	NFM​	4​	12:00:02 AM​	09/27/23 12:38 PM​	09/27/23 12:38 PM​	National Park Service​	Sequoia/Kings Canyon Parks​	Moro​	Conventional​
172.5​	C 123.0​	-88​	NFM​	3​	12:00:02 AM​	09/27/23 12:38 PM​	09/27/23 12:38 PM​	National Park Service​	Sequoia/Kings Canyon Parks​	Moro​	Conventional​

 

[es93546]

monitoring from yesterday

172.5​	C 123.0​	-104​	NFM​	6​	12:00:04 AM​	09/27/23 12:38 PM​	09/27/23 12:38 PM​	National Park Service​	Sequoia/Kings Canyon Parks​	Moro​	Conventional​
172.5​	C 123.0​	-88​	NFM​	4​	12:00:02 AM​	09/27/23 12:38 PM​	09/27/23 12:38 PM​	National Park Service​	Sequoia/Kings Canyon Parks​	Moro​	Conventional​
172.5​	C 123.0​	-88​	NFM​	3​	12:00:02 AM​	09/27/23 12:38 PM​	09/27/23 12:38 PM​	National Park Service​	Sequoia/Kings Canyon Parks​	Moro​	Conventional​

Great! Could you tell what the content of the traffic was? If you are hearing traffic stops then it's the Frontcountry Net, that along with locations in the frontcountry. If you hear backcountry locations, e.g. Bearpaw Meadow, Hamilton Lake, etc. then it is the Backcountry Net. On that net you will also hear morning and evening check-ins, with locations given that are also in the backcountry.

Thanks for doing this. Backcountry traffic will be minimal at this point in the season so you might have to listen for awhile, otherwise it's part of the Frontcountry Net. Again, we are past peak season, so traffic will not be heavy.

 

[vince48]

Unfortunately, i did not pay attention to the comms when they happened, busy doing other things at the time. I have then to record now (those two new frequencies) for now on, yes, i know the season is over now, but.... maybe El Nino will have makes things interesting this winter year

 

[swylie]

Here on the Eldorado we assign them by District:
Amador District: R5 Tac6
Georgetown District: R5 Tac4
Placerville District: R5 Tac5
Pacific District: Was NIFC Tac2 will now be R5 Tac7.

 

[ke6ats]

The season is winding down with fall upon us, so making a request for someone to monitor the new "Moro" repeater might find very little traffic on it. However, it would be helpful if someone in the Central Valley puts it in scanner and monitors it. I don't think it is linked to either the Frontcountry or Backcountry Nets, so traffic would be specific to a limited portion of the park. But, who knows? We can only monitor to find and answer and the best time to do so might not come until next spring/summer.

I’m in Visalia, I’ll monitor “Moro” as often as possible & let you know what I find. I’m retired & have enough equipment to basically do dedicated monitoring. I guess we’ll see.

 

[es93546]

I’m in Visalia, I’ll monitor “Moro” as often as possible & let you know what I find. I’m retired & have enough equipment to basically do dedicated monitoring. I guess we’ll see.

Thank you, I'm looking forward to whatever you come up with.