NPS Carlsbad Caverns, not receiving traffic

[Giddyuptd]

Bill has it right, the official listing for the "NPS Bush" repeater is 169.7125 output and 162.2375 input.

The official listing for the Alamogordo Interagency Dispatch Center has not listed a separate frequency for Carlsbad Caverns National Park. I wonder if both Guadalupe and Carlsbad Caverns are both dispatched using the Bush repeater. The old 164.6000 might be an in-cave simplex only. Just a guess, it's been over 41 years since I visited Alamogordo and Carlsbad Caverns.

The cav direct is a radio to radio for local operations. At one time they played around with a low power repeater but ended up just using simplex.

They do have ability to access the nps listings such as Bush. The one that was given out last programming output update was the Bush I had posted.

I think some hear traffic on other repeater outputs and assume it's old Bush pair still.

 

[rbuxton]

Interagency dispatch centers in Colorado deal with fire suppression, not law enforcement.

 

[KE5ZBG]

I've noticed that the NPS is beginning to regionalize its dispatching in some areas, where several small parks are linked to a larger park that provides dispatching for a group of parks. Most often these regionalized dispatch centers operate 24/7. Yosemite and Sequoia-Kings Canyon National Parks in California provide dispatching services for Lassen Volcanic, Pinnacles and Channel Islands, just to name a few. I wonder if Carlsbad and Guadalupe are part of a larger network for dispatching.

NPS staff at Bandelier are dispatched out of Page, Arizona by Glen Canyon.

 

[SkepticalEd]

Got some traffic on GUMO Bush Mountain today (169.7125). Nice, audible two-way traffic, but I wasn't close enough to identify caller or responder, but he said "...on Bush Mountain." Unfortunately, I had audio set to "All," so, on ProScan history, there was no tone identifier (I'm still learning this 996P2, what digital means, and ProScan).

I then created two separate Bush Mtn channels (169.7125), one with Analog + Search, another with Digital + Search. Had to run some errands, came back to see another hit on Bush Mtn, in Analog, 15 seconds long, and with a CTCSS tone of 127.3. Since I wasn't there to hear anything, does this mean they've reverted back to analog?

 

[SkepticalEd]

Just FYI, I also labeled Caverns frequency (164.600) twice, as Digital + Search, and Analog + Search, along with a frequency I remember from older days, as Caverns Old (164.800) in Analog + Search. Once again, got a hit while I was away from the system, on Caverns Old (164.800) with a CTCSS of 179.9. Wasn't present, so I don't know if it's a reassigned frequency, or still used by NPS.

Didn't mention it, but I put in on GUMO the old RX frequency of 164.425 as Analog + Search, though, I have no hits there, yet. One of these days, I'm going to be present to see if they're using analog again...

BTW, I worked in this area for several decades, and programmed all department radios (King/BendixKing, Midland and Securicor (rebranded Midland), including old LMR, Syntec, Syntec II, XTR, etc, using EEPROM dedicated programmers and then PC-based programming, and could literally reprogram a King by (RX DEC & TX DEC) without cloning in seconds by hand, and by memory. I was the guy co-workers called who had a scanner that needed freqs for city, county, state, and federal, and could list them all by memory.

This evolution came after having crystal-based Motorola Syntor and Micor radios in our units when I was hired, to all the aforementioned programmable units when I retired. Having had crystal scanners at home since 1978 to my last purchase of a BC560XLT was my latest endeavor in scanners until now.

This newer digital stuff has taken a bit of learning, but I'm starting to understand it. I appreciate all the input and help.

 

[SkepticalEd]

Meant to say "...King TX ENC...", not DEC... Couldn't edit that out...

 

[Giddyuptd]

It would have to be revisited. Maybe park in the parking and do a scan hit search with the old cav direct and one I had in list and checked ways back. How far were you from there getting getting hits on the old and new?

There is possibility they utilize the old as well for other things or maybe have made a pair with old and new?

Bush was made mixed mode so it'll take both but i believe analog is mainly used. Just like white sands most of alamogordo dispatch sites have mixed mode enabled. Most use analog as white sands though minus LE nps which seems to favor digital as the sands.

Most don't get the side repeaters or channels in list they normally only add the primary to everyone which i found to be odd. But I'm sure they don't want anyone using them and stick to a main repeater for mutual aide so probably why.

Just FYI, I also labeled Caverns frequency (164.600) twice, as Digital + Search, and Analog + Search, along with a frequency I remember from older days, as Caverns Old (164.800) in Analog + Search. Once again, got a hit while I was away from the system, on Caverns Old (164.800) with a CTCSS of 179.9. Wasn't present, so I don't know if it's a reassigned frequency, or still used by NPS.

Didn't mention it, but I put in on GUMO the old RX frequency of 164.425 as Analog + Search, though, I have no hits there, yet. One of these days, I'm going to be present to see if they're using analog again...

BTW, I worked in this area for several decades, and programmed all department radios (King/BendixKing, Midland and Securicor (rebranded Midland), including old LMR, Syntec, Syntec II, XTR, etc, using EEPROM dedicated programmers and then PC-based programming, and could literally reprogram a King by (RX DEC & TX DEC) without cloning in seconds by hand, and by memory. I was the guy co-workers called who had a scanner that needed freqs for city, county, state, and federal, and could list them all by memory.

This evolution came after having crystal-based Motorola Syntor and Micor radios in our units when I was hired, to all the aforementioned programmable units when I retired. Having had crystal scanners at home since 1978 to my last purchase of a BC560XLT was my latest endeavor in scanners until now.

This newer digital stuff has taken a bit of learning, but I'm starting to understand it. I appreciate all the input and help.

 

[SkepticalEd]

Found time to do site visits to both Caverns and GUMO today. Sat in the parking lot of Caverns for over an hour, at the far edge, furthest away from the visitor complex. Got good two-way (both sides) conversations on 164.600, NAC4CE, though, I'm not a fan AT ALL of how digital comm sounds on this 996P2, compared to analog (this was my first digital RX in person).

Afterwards, I drove to GUMO. On the way, started receiving sporadic comms around the NM/TX state line, and assumed it was from Caverns. Closer I got to GUMO, I realized it must be coming from there, particularly when I started receiving both sides between McKittrick Visitor Center turn off and Pine Springs Visitor Center. Spent almost two hours in the Pine Springs VC parking lot, and heard several both sides conversations, and a few one-sided comms, all on 164.600 NAC4CE, which told me it was definitely simplex, and all coming from GUMO NP. Heard no Bush Mountain comms, but had multiple Texas DPS Pecos and El Paso sector comms, so I'm confident my setup was good (permanent center roof mount quarter-wave Antenex wide-band, center-tuned to 162 MHz with RG8X. This tells me that GUMO is using 164.600 digital for their local, non-repeated communication.

But, by judging the "...on Bush Mountain..." comm I heard a few days ago, and now knowing what digital communications sound like on this 996P2, it was definitely analog, and I think you're right, they're using mixed mode; it's also possible that the Dog Canyon NP LE ranger that's permanent there is still on analog, and maybe that's who I heard. I'll keep listening...

 

[lhillin]

Great Information SkepticalEd! Thank you for the field work. I will add 164.600 to my scan list.

Did the Texas DPS and El Paso Sector comms involve GUMO personnel speaking with those agencies?

 

[SkepticalEd]

Additionally, while at Caverns, I got a few hits on Close Call on both my 125AT and 996P2 on 166.800. No tone, DCS or digital was listed, but I think my memory was jarred, as I had initially remembered some of the other Caverns repeaters (Water Tank, Walnut Canyon, Backcountry) as being on 164.800; I think now it was 166.800, as that just seems more correct. I'll try and keep an eye on this freq, and post accordingly.

 

[SkepticalEd]

lhillin - No, it didn't. Though, while I was there, a DPS Trooper pulled up to the Pine Springs VC in an Explorer, used the restroom, went inside the VC, and left. I was concentrated on trying to find more Bush Mtn repeater and local GUMO comms, that I didn't unlock the DPS systems I had programmed until I headed home; but, what surprised me, is I didn't receive a Close Call on either my 125AT or 996P2 when he pulled in, or when he left, because I was less than 100 yards from his patrol unit. He must have called in well before/after then, or not at all.

 

[lhillin]

Got it. Thanks for the information.

 

[Giddyuptd]

Found time to do site visits to both Caverns and GUMO today. Sat in the parking lot of Caverns for over an hour, at the far edge, furthest away from the visitor complex. Got good two-way (both sides) conversations on 164.600, NAC4CE, though, I'm not a fan AT ALL of how digital comm sounds on this 996P2, compared to analog (this was my first digital RX in person).

Afterwards, I drove to GUMO. On the way, started receiving sporadic comms around the NM/TX state line, and assumed it was from Caverns. Closer I got to GUMO, I realized it must be coming from there, particularly when I started receiving both sides between McKittrick Visitor Center turn off and Pine Springs Visitor Center. Spent almost two hours in the Pine Springs VC parking lot, and heard several both sides conversations, and a few one-sided comms, all on 164.600 NAC4CE, which told me it was definitely simplex, and all coming from GUMO NP. Heard no Bush Mountain comms, but had multiple Texas DPS Pecos and El Paso sector comms, so I'm confident my setup was good (permanent center roof mount quarter-wave Antenex wide-band, center-tuned to 162 MHz with RG8X. This tells me that GUMO is using 164.600 digital for their local, non-repeated communication.

But, by judging the "...on Bush Mountain..." comm I heard a few days ago, and now knowing what digital communications sound like on this 996P2, it was definitely analog, and I think you're right, they're using mixed mode; it's also possible that the Dog Canyon NP LE ranger that's permanent there is still on analog, and maybe that's who I heard. I'll keep listening...

Did you happen to notice if the NPS cave ranger staff was still using the apx1000 single knobs on your trips past year or so? I found it odd they had gone to those back when they were new. The LE guys had the bendix kings at the time.

 

[Giddyuptd]

lhillin - No, it didn't. Though, while I was there, a DPS Trooper pulled up to the Pine Springs VC in an Explorer, used the restroom, went inside the VC, and left. I was concentrated on trying to find more Bush Mtn repeater and local GUMO comms, that I didn't unlock the DPS systems I had programmed until I headed home; but, what surprised me, is I didn't receive a Close Call on either my 125AT or 996P2 when he pulled in, or when he left, because I was less than 100 yards from his patrol unit. He must have called in well before/after then, or not at all.

Could be using cad/mdt or somethings different or changed. I've noticed some traffic on the el paso region has been mia. I know within el paso city/county itself they use or can have use of the vhf trunking on el paso county system and the 2 talkgroups are encrypted. How much they use those I don't know. But occasionally I will hear Texas dps on the conventional still.

 

[Giddyuptd]

I have a simplex for NPS Guadalupe 164.4250 using 127.3 tone.

 

[ecps92]

166.8000 would/should be the BLM input to the 169.6500 Repeaters

Additionally, while at Caverns, I got a few hits on Close Call on both my 125AT and 996P2 on 166.800. No tone, DCS or digital was listed, but I think my memory was jarred, as I had initially remembered some of the other Caverns repeaters (Water Tank, Walnut Canyon, Backcountry) as being on 164.800; I think now it was 166.800, as that just seems more correct. I'll try and keep an eye on this freq, and post accordingly.

 

[SkepticalEd]

Giddyuptd Didn't go inside the VC at Caverns, and the only uniforms I saw outside looked like young GS-4s or 5s, and none had radios. At PS, didn't go inside the VC either (it was busy and no govt or LE vehicles in the staff parking, so figured they were probably interp staff and wouldn't be able to answer any radio system questions).

ecps92 Could be. The only old BLM pair I remember off top of my head was repeater output 168.500/input 167.150 (don't remember tone), and old USFS of rptr output 169.125/input 170.500, Dark Canyon tone 173.8 and Sitting Bull Falls tone 186.2.

I don't know why systems couldn't just reprogram to cut the deviation in half instead of changing existing frequencies completely.

 

[SkepticalEd]

A slightly off-topic question... went camping at Davis Mountains few years ago, and it was either in Ft Davis or Marfa that a trooper was fueling up next to me, he left his door open, and wow, the audio coming from his car was unreal. It was like high-definition audio of dispatch, and sounded like it was coming from all factory-mounted speakers. Does DPS pipe the audio through the stereo? And does digital actually sound that good on commercial systems? I really don't like the way it sounds on my 996P2. Just not realistic.

 

[ecps92]

It's not just deviation.
There is also an entire NTIA move to a standard band plan, for input vs output and simplex

Federal VHF/UHF Channel Plans - The RadioReference Wiki

wiki.radioreference.com

Giddyuptd Didn't go inside the VC at Caverns, and the only uniforms I saw outside looked like young GS-4s or 5s, and none had radios. At PS, didn't go inside the VC either (it was busy and no govt or LE vehicles in the staff parking, so figured they were probably interp staff and wouldn't be able to answer any radio system questions).

ecps92 Could be. The only old BLM pair I remember off top of my head was repeater output 168.500/input 167.150 (don't remember tone), and old USFS of rptr output 169.125/input 170.500, Dark Canyon tone 173.8 and Sitting Bull Falls tone 186.2.

I don't know why systems couldn't just reprogram to cut the deviation in half instead of changing existing frequencies completely.

 

[mass-man]

A slightly off-topic question... went camping at Davis Mountains few years ago, and it was either in Ft Davis or Marfa that a trooper was fueling up next to me, he left his door open, and wow, the audio coming from his car was unreal. It was like high-definition audio of dispatch, and sounded like it was coming from all factory-mounted speakers. Does DPS pipe the audio through the stereo? And does digital actually sound that good on commercial systems? I really don't like the way it sounds on my 996P2. Just not realistic.

THE TX DPS P25 system is very well maintained. unsure if its piped thru the car speakers, kinda doubt it, but on my HP1 and 996P2 it sounds great. I one time spent a half hour in a troopers car while he checked my drivers log and we chatted. I too was amazed how good it sounded and told him so...he had come out of retirement to help when they were short staffed and talked about how it beat the heck out of the old analog VHF system. You'll see it talked about a lot on RR, that a properly setup digital system is hard to beat...