NX-5x000 Dynamic Group Call - No Rx with Group ID Scan Disabled

[schester]

I'm clearly missing something as I'm sure this is a supported operation and I can't believe it would be a bug. I have only tested this on a NX-5300. I could test on NX-5800, but haven't yet.

In Personality mode. I have a personality that does not have Group ID Scan checked. I also have Dual Slot Direct Mode disabled on this personality (working with a Zumspot). I have a group ID list and persistent group IDs configured, but the persistent group IDs are a subset of the Group IDs available in the group ID list.

If I select one of the non-persistent group IDs and PTT (for example 310), it shows up on the display and connects the Zumspot to the talk group, but I never receive any audio. The radio shows that it is receiving signal and I can confirm via Zumspot dashboard that it is transmitting the selected talk group, but the squelch is never opened. With the same programming, if I select one of the persistent Groups it works as expected.

When I first tested this, without group ID scan I was receiving any audio, even for the IDs that were configured as persistent. Not sure that I changed anything, but I wrote the data again and it seems to be working as expected there now.

Surely there has to be a way to only hear a talk group on demand / dynamically. I expect that after the time out I would no longer hear the dynamic group, unless selected and PTT'd again to reactivate the group.

I suppose it would be worth testing this on a personality that has dual slot direct mode enabled.

 

[schester]

I tried it on a local repeater running Motorola IP Site Connect and I believe I see the same behavior. This is with dual slot direct mode enabled. I'm able to activate the dynamic TG on the repeater, I can see it linked and activity on the BrandMeister.network dashboard, but I don't hear anything. It's harder for me to confirm that it is actually sending the talkgroup to me as other activity could be taking that time slot.

Any ideas? Seems like there has to be a way for someone to talk to a different group that they don't normally want to monitor. For example, PD putting out a call on the maint. group, but I guess they could just change channels.

 

[kd4efm]

Unfortunately you will have to have a GID set. That's based on how the programming guide states it.

Dual slot direct means both 1 and 2 are sent in simplex mode, allows for other radios to use the other slot for simplex, or off, 1 ts is tx at a time.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

 

[schester]

Unfortunately you will have to have a GID set. That's based on how the programming guide states it.

Are you saying I need to set the Selcall on PTT or the persistent group ID must be used? I'm guessing the latter, which seems like a pretty unfortunate design flaw. I guess I'd have to setup different systems with the same frequencies solely to have different receive lists, unless I'm missing some other way to do that.

 

[otobmark]

OK, I did the same test as OP laid out. I got mixed result. On the fly menu selected TG must be in overall system list or it doesn't show up as an option. If I call from within a channel/personality in which Group ID Scan (DMR) is NOT selected using an on the fly menu selected TG NOT on the persistent list and the called party responds quickly on the same TG I can usually hear the return audio. If return call delays then I get no audio or caller ID displayed and channel reverts to it normal TG and to hearing only persistent TG's. This didn't work flawlessly everytime but I was using radios near each other through a repeater 2 miles away and I may have de-sensed the receiving radio somewhat. It did work most of the time anyway. We are familiar with talkback on same scanned TG as radio unmutes on and what the OP is desiring is essentially a "listenback" function on NON Persistent TG. At this point I believe this possible. It may be desirable to extend auto
reset timer(s) to 10-20 seconds or even more. Evans clued me to this. The setting is found on cps tree: DMR>DMR Information>Auto reset timer(s). It has a range of 0 to 300 seconds. This is the "hang" time for TG's coming and going.

 

[schester]

Thanks otobmark for doing this test.

In my test I was just pulling up a busy talk group (TAC 310), but I didn't think about the timing component of the response. Even though the radio can join a call mid-call, maybe it doesn't work in this case and it needs to see the beginning of the call.

I do have my timer set to 30 seconds I believe, but I will try setting it longer and doing some more testing.

 

[schester]

Otobmark, we seem to be getting different results. I removed all entries from my persistent group ID field and set my auto reset timer to 120 seconds. I was able to talk into a TG, but could not hear anything even though I had someone on the other side responding to me. This was using a Zumspot, so there may be some issues there. I thought I had also tried it on a local repeater, but the last heard list doesn't show that I actually got in there. I was able to do a private call (with the same person who was responding to me in the TG) without issue.

I'm going to try the same test on a 5800 when I can get outside and hop in the truck to do so.

I'm running 3.0 fw, is there a chance you're running something different?

 

[schester]

Made it outside and tested with a NX-5800 to a local repeater. I also tried a few other variables. I had been using auto time slot. I tried setting the time slot to see if that made any difference (no). I also tried with a Selcall on PTT (for a different group) and nothing set.

In no way could I get the selected TG to play audio to the speaker or show on screen the call. I duplicated personalities, so I was able to roll to the personality for the same repeater that had Group ID Scan enabled and it worked as expected there. Any TG ID in the list was heard.

otobmark, are you running zone/channel or personality mode? I'm running personality mode.

The best case workaround I'm thinking of at this point is duplicating each personality and have one that has group ID scan checked and one that doesn't. The system overall would have the primary talk groups that I want to hear and on the random occasion that I'd want to use something else I'd have to switch personalities. It's double the personalities and channels, but at least I could avoid hearing TAC 310 every-time someone keys it up on the local repeater, but still have the ability to use it when desired.

 

[otobmark]

I'm running fw 3.10. I tried again and discovered that the "listen back" receive only lasts about 2 seconds after end of traffic and seems unaffected by any of the timers I could locate. Not very practical since very few qso's would be rapid fire enough to have no gaps in traffic longer than 2 seconds. Radio to radio I sometimes get ID info on receive. Going through the repeater while the "listen back" is receiving I get no ID info. All in all "listen back" is not particularly useful especially to bring up a TG and monitor it. Sorry. The fact that it almost works does mean that it probably could be made to function with minor FW treaks. With all the other features and bugs to chase I doubt Kenwood would give it any priority at all.

 

[schester]

I tried this today in zone/channel mode and still couldn't get it to work. I'm not sure Kenwood would do anything about this, but it must be a bug. Otherwise, why would you even have a persistent group ID list. If it has to match your talk group list, it would just match that.

Thanks for your testing otobmark. Always great to have another data point.

I guess the next thing on my list is to try and test it with NXDN to confirm how it works there. If it works as one would expect, that would further cement this as being a bug.

 

[schester]

I updated my NX-5300 to 4.0 firmware and did some more testing with this today.

I may be seeing results similar to otobmark now. If I key the TG when the TG is in use, I'll hear the remainder of that transmission, but it doesn't pick up the next transmission. i.e. two people are talking, I'll hear whoever is talking that second, but won't hear anything else.

More specifically, I have DMR Auto Reset Timer set at 40 seconds. I key PTT and will hear someone for 1-30 seconds (I don't know what happens if they talk past the 40 second mark, will have to test that), but other people talking within that first 40 seconds don't break the squelch. After 40 seconds the display goes back to normal.

I haven't been able to test with NXDN yet.

I called Kenwood to see if they could shed any light on this, but didn't get anywhere. Their suggestion was to test without a repeater radio to radio, but even if that works it doesn't solve the problem of dynamically selecting a TG when using a repeater.

I guess I'm down to programming two of every frequency, one with Group ID Scan enabled and one with it disabled.