NY Penn Station Interop Frequency Among All Agencies

[mastrIII]

There has been several news articles published about a year ago indicating that all agencies at NY Penn will soon be able to talk to each other on the same frequency/radios. So there must be either one frequency (or talkgroup under the Metro 25 system) in which Amtrak PD, MTA PD, and NYPD ALL have access to in order to communicate effectively at NY Penn....I would assume it is the main frequency used there now for all the agencies to communicate. If no one has that frequency, I may take a trip over there in the upcoming months with my scanner and see what I can close-call.

Those articles you read were most likely about the recent amendments to the FCC rules denying "Railroad Police" (Private Police that are owned and/or controlled by non-governmental entities like Amtrak, CSX, or Norfolk Southern) access to the federal interop frequencies.

This was only the first step as every agency would need multiband radios to have one dedicated channel at Penn Station. APD has VHF radios, MTAPD has VHF/700800 radios, NYPD TD has VHF/UHF, and NYPD MTS has UHF radios. Just to name a few. For now they will have to rely on their dispatchers to relay information to adjacent agencies unless they have a MOU (Memorandum of understanding) and are on the same band like MTAPD and APD. Since the recent changes APD can now have VCALL10 and the VTAC channels in their radios (not sure about VLAW31 although they do have it) but that doesn't help them talk with NYPD.

The lead agencies inside Penn Station are MTAPD (LIRR concourse and tracks) and Amtrak PD (Amtrak and NJT concourses and tracks). MTA PD District 4 uses 160.3200 114.8PL inside and TG:6025 on the Metro 25 TRS outside. APD uses 161.2950 131.8PL inside and outside Penn Station. They both have each others channels in their radios and will talk to each quite frequently. APD is limited to VHF and currently doesn't have access to Metro 25. There is no Metro 25 coverage inside Penn Station. Other agencies like the NY State Police don't have a radio system inside Penn Station so they operate on the MTA PD channel. Same goes for NJT PD and DHS FAMS/VIPR except they will use the APD channel.

When it comes to the NYPD, the MTAPD have UHF portables in their RMPs with their frequencies and APD has one or two radios floating around.

During a high security special event (e.g. The Pope Visit) outside agencies (e.g. NYPD) have set up temporary radio systems inside Penn Station.

As far as the National Guard goes like you said I see them with different radios/antennas everyday. I believe the argument is that they are military and not law enforcement and therefore don't have a need for interop, although I'm sure their commanding officers have constant contact to APD and MTAPD via telephone.

What they are doing to build out Metro 25 underground or inside buildings is installing BDAs (Bi-Directional Amplifiers) with antennas outside.

Quote"
Penn station is mostly VHF stuff. Put in FDNY VHF citywide with no PL and the old fireground 153.830 no PL. They are both used inside for incidents.

Does FDNY have VHF portables sitting at a location at Penn? This is the case at GCT, there is a box located off Vandebuilt Ave with a dozen or so XTS-3000 vhf radios. Output is 153.83 C.S.

FDNY at Penn Station has dedicated VHF radios at the Command Post in the old taxi lane (31st between 7th and 8th). The latest frequency is 154.5475 167.9PL They also use the UHF HT channel assigned by the dispatcher for box "8171". FDNY battalion chiefs will also communicate from other locations like emergency exits from tunnels using the FDNY 6B Ops channel on the NYC DoITT TRS.

 

[Analogrules]

Mastrlll, thanks for the info. Very helpful. It seems that the RR DB, currently does not have all the frequencies used at Penn Station all together. For example, on the NY Railroads page, it lists 161.490 as MTA PD at Penn and not 160.320.

I also heard that Amtrak PD only communicates on their input frequency of 160.365 at times in the station.

 

[mastrIII]

Mastrlll, thanks for the info. Very helpful. It seems that the RR DB, currently does not have all the frequencies used at Penn Station all together. For example, on the NY Railroads page, it lists 161.490 as MTA PD at Penn and not 160.320.

I also heard that Amtrak PD only communicates on their input frequency of 160.365 at times in the station.

The frequencies I previously provided are the current repeater outputs. Both agencies have simplex talk around channels none of which include 161.490 or 160.365. Anyone listening to those would only hear near by subscriber units and not their dispatchers as they are and have always been the repeater input freqs.

Ordinarily if a radio is setup to use a "talk around" function (which bypasses the repeater) it would transmit directly on the repeater output frequency instead of the input. This is mainly so units can talk to each other and the dispatcher won't hear unnessesary radio traffic while other units not using the talk around function would still hear them. The only agency I know that uses that is NJTPD on their conventional vhf systems.

 

[radioman2001]

Quote"
FDNY at Penn Station has dedicated VHF radios at the Command Post in the old taxi lane (31st between 7th and 8th). The latest frequency is 154.5475 167.9PL They also use the UHF HT channel assigned by the dispatcher for box "8171". FDNY battalion chiefs will also communicate from other locations like emergency exits from tunnels using the FDNY 6B Ops channel on the NYC DoITT TRS."

There is also the possibility that FDNY will do what is being installed at GCT right now. FDNY has asked for a LOT of space for multiple voters and a UHF repeater for inside the Terminal which will cover all areas of Terminal and office spaces in the 4 towers.

BTW 161.490 is now also a MNRR frequency.

 

[Sconnick]

So the long and short, after all this discussion is this: inter agency communications have always been, and will continue to be, an issue at short-notice events, large and small, in the NYC area. Such was the case when I worked down there years ago, and such is the case now.

 

[radioman2001]

Well I don't know when you worked down there, but when I did from the late 70's till 90's the NYC agencies were always islands to themselves. NYCEMS had it's own CW, FD had it's own, and PD used SOD. They would all stand around not talking to one another at major scenes.When FD took over EMS they basically took away any equipment that would communicate with any other agency. When I worked down there we actually could and would sign out a portable from the local preceint, that all went away when FD took over, and I heard that after I left that you could be knocked out of service if caught with any radio not FDNY issue.The bosses all down there have inferiority complexes, so until that is all straightnened out there won't be any real inter-agency radio co-operation with the exception of the PD's.

 

[Sconnick]

Exactly. And even just getting the PDs to the point where they can talk to each other is a logistical mountain...

 

[wa8pyr]

Those articles you read were most likely about the recent amendments to the FCC rules denying "Railroad Police" (Private Police that are owned and/or controlled by non-governmental entities like Amtrak, CSX, or Norfolk Southern) access to the federal interop frequencies.

Not sure where you saw that they were denied, but the Rulemaking and notice in the Federal Register specifically amended Part 90 to permit use of the interoperability frequencies by Railroad Police.

https://www.federalregister.gov/doc...fety-interoperability-and-mutual-aid-channels

The actual Federal interop frequencies as found in the NIFOG (160-170 MHz and 406-420 MHz) are governed by NTIA rules and not addressed by the proceeding, but I expect the RR police would be under the same restrictions as local agencies, not to use the Federal frequencies unless they're directed to do so while working with Federal agencies.

 

[RadioDitch]

Not sure where you saw that they were denied, but the Rulemaking and notice in the Federal Register specifically amended Part 90 to permit use of the interoperability frequencies by Railroad Police.

https://www.federalregister.gov/doc...fety-interoperability-and-mutual-aid-channels

The actual Federal interop frequencies as found in the NIFOG (160-170 MHz and 406-420 MHz) are governed by NTIA rules and not addressed by the proceeding, but I expect the RR police would be under the same restrictions as local agencies, not to use the Federal frequencies unless they're directed to do so while working with Federal agencies.

With part of the decision for that rulemaking having considered Section 1701 of the U.S. Crime Control Act of 1990 and 49 USC 28101 whereby railroad police holding a valid firearms and law enforcement certificate are authorized, except where repealed by state law (KY, WI, and WY), with full interstate law enforcement powers through all states which their employing interstate carrier owns property or trackage rights. It was seen as essential to permit federal interop, and was reaffirmed post-9/11 for obvious reasons.

It's also part of the reason that NJTransit Police, CSX Police, and NS Police all have access to the NJICS system now. Time will tell if agencies in Penn get access to Metro-25 or if a Penn Station system is ever developed.

 

[sefrischling]

The actual Federal interop frequencies as found in the NIFOG (160-170 MHz and 406-420 MHz) are governed by NTIA rules and not addressed by the proceeding, but I expect the RR police would be under the same restrictions as local agencies, not to use the Federal frequencies unless they're directed to do so while working with Federal agencies.

... although Amtrak Police are Federal

 

[mastrIII]

Not sure where you saw that they were denied, but the Rulemaking and notice in the Federal Register specifically amended Part 90 to permit use of the interoperability frequencies by Railroad Police.

https://www.federalregister.gov/doc...fety-interoperability-and-mutual-aid-channels

The actual Federal interop frequencies as found in the NIFOG (160-170 MHz and 406-420 MHz) are governed by NTIA rules and not addressed by the proceeding, but I expect the RR police would be under the same restrictions as local agencies, not to use the Federal frequencies unless they're directed to do so while working with Federal agencies.

Sorry you didn't understand my wording, but they made amendments to rules that denied them access. I didn't mean that as a result of the amendments they were denied, but rather allowed. My mistake I meant the (non-federal) nationwide interoperability and mutual aid channels.

 

[coolrich55]

So if there are interop comms going on someone should have definitely heard something during that stampede incident recently.

 

[nd5y]

The current NIFOG (1.6.1 at the time of this post) can be found at:
https://www.dhs.gov/publication/fog-documents
or
Public Safety Technical Assistance Tools Website

 

[Analogrules]

I am curious why 154.5475 is not in the rr db? Neither is 153.830.

 

[Darkstar350]

Being that 153.830 is a state-wide interop frequency "NYFIRE" it is not exclusive to NYC but perhaps just adding a note of sorts in the DB advising that FDNY/PD may have access to the NYFIRE channels would suffice

 

[Spec]

I've been watching this thread with some interest as no one has approached the subject of the operators lack of training when it comes to what channel is what. Take a guy out of the East , one out of the North and one out of Penn and ask them what channels do what and do it under stress. Chances are they will have some issues. The training on the use of the equipment is poor if at all outside the immediate primary frequency. Now guys that have some radio knowledge do fair somewhat better but most of the troops do not. Training how to use the radio other than turning it on is seriously needed AND it needs to be done system wide not just by region.

 

[mastrIII]

I am curious why 154.5475 is not in the rr db? Neither is 153.830.

Just want to clearify 153.830 is and was never used at Penn Station

I've been watching this thread with some interest as no one has approached the subject of the operators lack of training when it comes to what channel is what. Take a guy out of the East , one out of the North and one out of Penn and ask them what channels do what and do it under stress. Chances are they will have some issues. The training on the use of the equipment is poor if at all outside the immediate primary frequency. Now guys that have some radio knowledge do fair somewhat better but most of the troops do not. Training how to use the radio other than turning it on is seriously needed AND it needs to be done system wide not just by region.

Your completely right, they will usually blame it on the system, but the radio techs rarely find problems.