Oakland and Bay Area Interoperability

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dougr1252

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Interesting Powerpoint presentation describing on-going and future radio system upgrades for SF, Oakland, BART and other agencies. Oakland's current system is outlined, and they are planning another P25 pilot site at Fire Station 28.

http://tinyurl.com/d3xv27
 

rooivalk

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Interoperability is a great buzzword, but what is the feasibility of it?

Every county in the Bay Area operates on a different radio system. If this interop. goes live, will that enable a SFPD unit to radio a Oakland PD unit? I doubt it will work that way. Currently, most agencies in the bay area have command vehicles that have multi-agency comms, and I doubt anyone will give the street levbel Officer the ability to communicate the way the interop. plan is being sold.

SF can't even get their trunked system to work well, with large dead spots, no building coverage, no BART tube coverage, partial MUNI subway coverage. One of the issues brought up with the FDNY and 9/11 was the fact that their radios didn't work in the Towers. SFFD radios don't work in buildings, and there are no concrete plans to improve coverage, yet there are plans for interop?

I'll take a what and see approach, as it looks good on Powerpoint, but will be much harder to actually implement.
 

dougr1252

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The idea, as presented, is to move to P25 regional networks, where SFPD can realistically talk to BART, who can talk to Alameda Co., etc. About the only way anything gets funded these days is with federal grants, generally COPS or UASI. The feds only want to fund interoperability upgrades, so everything is interoperable.
 

smokeybehr

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Yeah, but how are all the disparate networks going to be linked? Between the various 800, 450 and 480 TRS's using all different formats, what is going to tie everything together? I seriously doubt that there's going to be more than 1 set of talkgroups tied together 24/7, and it probably won't get any use, as everyone wants to stay on their own channels/talkgroups.

Interoperability is a great buzzword, but in practice, it never works as intended.
 

SCPD

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In the rural counties of California we almost have interoperability already. All departments of the counties, CDF, DFG, U.S. Forest Service, National Park Service, BLM and all the fire districts can and do talk with each other. California State Parks is one exception but they used to have a second mobile in their rigs that was all VHF, but their handhelds are 800 MHz only. That leaves Caltrans and the CHP who can't talk with each other or anyone else. Each Caltrans section supervisor has a CHP mobile in their trucks. State Parks can talk with Caltrans on car to car, but they really don't need to. Interoperability with State Parks, Caltrans, and the CHP is accomplished by scanner cross talk.

The interoperability problem in the Bay Area is similar to southern California with disparate trunking systems depending on which county it is. Motorola, EDACS, 800 MHz both conventional and trunked, 480 MHz analog and digital, Orange County with 800 MHz trunked encryption, Orange County Fire with trunked 800 MHz, 450/460 for L.A. County Fire with VHF for Tac, 800 MHz for the LAFD, most federal agencies on VHF and some with 406 UHF, State Parks on conventional 800 MHz, CDF/DFG on VHF, Caltrans on 800 MHz, the CHP on low band, the Freeway Service Patrol on conventional analog 800 MHz, miscellaneous state agencies on CMARS conventional analog 800 MHz, EMS all over the map even for hosptial/paramedic communications, utility companies and school distiricts on every band and a few entities still on low band.

Then all the border regions of Oregon, Nevada and Arizona with differences between the same type of agency depending on what side of the line is involved. The highway patrol in California on VHF-Low, Oregon on VHF High, in Nevada EDACS 800 MHz trunked, and in Arizona converntional UHF. The DOT in California on 800 MHz conventional, in Oregon on VHF-High, in Nevada on EDACS 800 MHz trunked, and on VHF-High in Arizona except for their Phoenix District on Motorola 800 MHz trunked. At least wildland fire between states is interoperable, at least in the west.

Then there is the matter of different code systems between nearly everyone but fire. If you can talk with other agencies will you speak the same language? I know that mutual aid situations are supposed to have clear text employed, but tell that to LEO's and have them actually do it.

Now throw in the military/national guard. Disparate systems depending on location, function even at one location, and between the Marines,
Army, Navy, Air Force, Army National Guard and Air National Guard. They can't talk with each other so it is hard for them to talk with civilians.

Put hams into the picture and their radios are not supposed to be able to talk with anyone but other hams, unless thay have an agency provided radio that has been modified for one of the ham bands. Hams also use HF, which most public safety agenices don't even know about, but can be the best thing going when everything else fails, and at times it does.

On wildland fire the wildland fire agencies have interoperability and it is getting better. But we can't always talk with PD's. SO's, animal control, utility companies, etc. and on a moving fire during initial or extended attack during the first 24-48 hours that can make things difficult and dangerous. Once the fire has been going for 36 hours or more NIFC cache handhelds are usually for these disparate radio system entities.

Fire agenices have the most interoperability, understand mutual aid and ICS and work together better than anyone. There are some differences between regions in the country, but fire fighters understand clear text on mutual aid fairly well. Practice, practice, practice! Law enforcement does not get the same level of practice. Do you talk with LEO's that respond all over California and out of state very often? Firefighters usually understand radio enough to use 16 groups in a handheld, know the difference between tactical nets, command nets at both the state and federal level. Quite a few or most understand how to program a field programable radio. LEO's don't have as much practice at doing this os they can't find things as readily. They rarely carry field programmable radios.

Codes and triage labels differ by area/region of the U.S. in EMS. However, a nasal cannula is the same thing all around the country. Administering a drug IV push or IM is standard terminology no matter where where in the U.S. you are. Now if some EMS agencies would drop their disparate symptom codes things might work a bit better!

Natural resource agencies at the federal and state levels have interoperability in most of the U.S. and can speak with each other, differences in 10 code/clear text not withstanding. What a concept!

Yes, interoperability with present technology is a buzzword. Politicians and the media use it, but those familiar with radios and public safety roll their eyes!
 
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commstar

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Interoperability is a joke for Law Enforcement. Cops and Firefighters have different missions, different training and far differing views of Interoperability

One can take a Firefighter and plug him in just about anywhere in the fire service and he can work. Not so with Cops. Cops have differing training, differing corporate culture and different objectives....you cannot just plug a cop in away from his hometown and expect him to work at capacity it is just not that simple.

In addition, the nature of law enforcement in California, particularly the East Bay is rife with civil liability management. There is no way on the face of the earth that a department is going to place its Officers under the Chain of Command and Supervision of another agency- not in the east bay.

The trend over the past couple of decades had been one agency to take all or nothing in the way of control. Good example is CHP's policy that they will not take part in pursuit unless they take over the pursuit and the originating agency drops out and perhaps trails but not participates. This is mostly so they dont have to figure out how to skin the grape when the lawsuit comes and it will come.

Oakland is it own island. So is everyone else. 9-Code, EDACS, Funky CAD System, calling South 'East' the list goes on and on. Oakland is no more interoperable now that it was 20 years ago. 20 Years ago the ACSD was on VHF with Oakland, Piedmont, San Leandro, Pleasanton, & Livermore. All their systems worked and worked well.

Southern Alameda County also had interoperability with Fremont, Hayward, Union City, Bart, and Newark not to mention Berkeley and Emeryville all on UHF up into Contra Costa County and South into Santa Clara County and even West into San Mateo and San Francisco.

Let me say that with the recent and truly horrific an tragic loss of four OPD Officers should again illustrate the fact that OPD and Alameda County are not even compatible much less interoperable. OPD shut down and let other agencies staff their Patrol Division for 24hrs. Word was Command Staff wanted 48-72Hrs to do some temperature taking and let a bit of steam blow-off. There was not one agency, size aside, that could come in and take over for OPD during their time of mourning.

Then came Motorola and GE to sell radio systems. Sales were down and something had to be done to boost sales. Funny how some of the same names used to be at Motorola are now managing Government Radio Systems- no names mentioned- but wink wink fun time$ are ahead. Sorry about that typo- replace the $ with an 's'.

Has to make one wonder why when there was interoperability in the first place these systems were replaced at all.

My opinion is empire building. Trunking locks one into a particular vendor, therefore limiting choice and effecting price (up). To blame are the shot callers who don't understand, want to understand or have any idea why they are doing what they are doing but they have been promised wonderful things that never seem to materialize.

And hypothetically speaking of course, if a couple of mortgages and cruises get paid for along the way thats the way business is done right?

Just like always in government no accountability and often no ethics in management

I have arrived at the opinion that trunked radio systems are often nothing more than empire building. They are not abou tspectrum efficiency or improving that capabilty of the user. They are about money and control-it absolutely guarantees the job of those in the radio shop due it being so complicated and time consuming to maintain and they build the vendors empire because now they own a customer.

The only ones who suffer are the ones who are supposed to benefit- the cop and firefighter on the street. Interoperability is in fact a joke.

Mike
 
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I gotta agree with you guys when we had that bus crash in Soledad last week Soledad PD and Monterey SO were both relay through dispatchers when they could of switch over to one the county channels. And listening to how organized Fire and EMS was at MCI it was perfect on their end. I bet you when Monterey county gets there new system for "interoperability" law enforcement will still relay through dispatchers.
 
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cousinkix1953

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I gotta agree with you guys when we had that bus crash in Soledad last week Soledad PD and Monterey SO were both relay through dispatchers when they could of switch over to one the county channels. And listening to how organized Fire and EMS was at MCI it was perfect on their end. I bet you when Monterey county gets there new system for "interoperability" law enforcement will still relay through dispatchers.
All of those city police department's can use the Santa Cruz county sheriff's "red" repeater. It comes in handy, when they must chase suspects out of town and not tie up regular dispatching traffic. CAL-FIRE has used the local fire channels for many years. Now the locals can be heard using the state's 151 mhz repeaters too. They change frequencies whenever the need arises.

How ironic that Soledad PD is dispatched from the same communications center as the Monterey county sheriff which owns the primary license for 158.805 mhz any way. That bus accident was a good reason why they should have all been able to use sheriff's channel two and get on the same page.

The radio manufacturers are just like the military industrial complex. The create new weapons and lobby the FCC, to create a new market for them. Digital P-25 radios aren't what they were supposed to be either. They don't have the range of older annalog models and tend to crap out easier too. What a waste of money...
 

Ben96cal

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We already have interoperbility

Interoperability is a great buzzword, but what is the feasibility of it?

Every county in the Bay Area operates on a different radio system. If this interop. goes live, will that enable a SFPD unit to radio a Oakland PD unit? I doubt it will work that way. Currently, most agencies in the bay area have command vehicles that have multi-agency comms, and I doubt anyone will give the street levbel Officer the ability to communicate the way the interop. plan is being sold.

SF can't even get their trunked system to work well, with large dead spots, no building coverage, no BART tube coverage, partial MUNI subway coverage. One of the issues brought up with the FDNY and 9/11 was the fact that their radios didn't work in the Towers. SFFD radios don't work in buildings, and there are no concrete plans to improve coverage, yet there are plans for interop?

I'll take a what and see approach, as it looks good on Powerpoint, but will be much harder to actually implement.
-------------------------------------

I mean come on guys.. We already have all this. After listening to the oakland riot and listening to the progress of the rebanding most agencies atleast in alameda county can talk to each other... Alco can patch any OFD TG into theirs and talk. OFD and Alco have tg's programmed into their radio's as well as Calfire, hayward, emeryville, tracy milpitas and COCO county can talk on alco trunk. AMR also has alco fire Tg's in their radio's... All this interoperability stuff is an excuse to buy nice new fancy radio systems.

If SF really wanted to talk to Oakland or alco all they'd have to do is patch, like everyone else is doing now..
 

avtarsingh

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i guess the notion is too foreign to put a vhf radio with clemars/clers channels into every fire and police car or program the clemars/clers channels into existing vhf radios

too hard to do
wayyy too expensive
funny how most of the rural counties get this and DO this and use the clers /clemars channels a LOT
 

inigo88

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I loved it when I was on my way to Tahoe and the CALTRANS supervisor and CHP sergeant were talking car to car with each other at an accident on I-80. No multi-million dollar digital trunking system required.

The trick is, there are no federal homeland security grants for buying more lowband radios. ;)
 

WA1ATA

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I loved it when I was on my way to Tahoe and the CALTRANS supervisor and CHP sergeant were talking car to car with each other at an accident on I-80. No multi-million dollar digital trunking system required.

The trick is, there are no federal homeland security grants for buying more lowband radios. ;)

Doesn't have to be lowband. In fact, one of the problems in the South Bay is confusion between the multiple versions of Baymacs. There are interop channels in the 150MHz, 460 MHz, 480MHz and 800MHz bands. The problem is getting people onto the SAME Baymacs /CLEMARS/Calcord channel, and/or getting the cross band repeaters turned on.

The hardware isn't the problem. It's lack of concern about interop, general lack of planning, and plain old ignorance.
 
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dougr1252

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San Fran bid specs for new fire apparatus specifies a Kenwood VHF radio along with an XTS5000.

i guess the notion is too foreign to put a vhf radio with clemars/clers channels into every fire and police car or program the clemars/clers channels into existing vhf radios

too hard to do
wayyy too expensive
funny how most of the rural counties get this and DO this and use the clers /clemars channels a LOT
 

K6CDO

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San Fran bid specs for new fire apparatus specifies a Kenwood VHF radio along with an XTS5000.

I'm glad to see the lessons of 1989, 1991, 1993, 2003 and 2007 (among many other Mutual Aid events) finally sunk into SFFD's management ...
 

ekrashola

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Interoperability is the Keyword.

Most users of these systems dont' know of or are aware of the interoperable capabilities of current 800-900 Mhz systems and it remains in question if manufacturers have included it in newer 700 Mhz systems. Motorola and EDACS trunking systems are interoperable and crossband capable with UHF and VHF systems which have uplink/downlink features that are built into EDACS MASTER Series repeaters and Motorola's equivalent site controllers.

The interoperability problem for a WAN is more of a Systems Administrator's problem. A problem of designating and establishing the "interop" network between varied systems and coverage areas. You will notice most Federal Trunks have Nationwide Calling channels and interoperability which functions more like a nation-wide mobile cellular network, so only federal agencies on that network will have access as they move in and out of regional and statewide trunks. VHF CLEMARS frequencies have specific uplinks to 800 Mhz trunked systems in both Motorola and EDACS formats.

System Administrators must come up with a plan to make it interoperable and functional using the capabilities of their equipment...that is where we are failing. We have to determine the scope of interoperbility with neighboring counties on different systems and where that interoperability is a neccessity, reserve "interop" bandwidth for small interagency coordination purposes and still be able to quickly adapt and have an interoperable system in the event of any major disasters
 
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