Oakland County M/A-COM OpenSky TRS

[fireresq2825]

It appears they've made allowances for that with some TG's on MPSCS.

There are several specific patch TG's on MPSCS, such as 63MPSC1 thru 5, 63P911& F91. I cant remember if COM has a patch or not. There is a gateway device owned by Oakland Co. and located at the MPSCS site in Northville, backhauled by a T1 to Oakland Co. and connected to individual conventional resource inputs on the MPSCS side.

The reality of the operation is that if someone on either system wants to talk to the other they have to have a dispatch center intervene and create a patch and/or have users change TG's. It's not exactly the seamless or rapid interoperability that some would have folks believe, but it does work.

 

[kd8ati]

There are several specific patch TG's on MPSCS, such as 63MPSC1 thru 5, 63P911& F91. I cant remember if COM has a patch or not. There is a gateway device owned by Oakland Co. and located at the MPSCS site in Northville, backhauled by a T1 to Oakland Co. and connected to individual conventional resource inputs on the MPSCS side.

The reality of the operation is that if someone on either system wants to talk to the other they have to have a dispatch center intervene and create a patch and/or have users change TG's. It's not exactly the seamless or rapid interoperability that some would have folks believe, but it does work.

A couple of week ago there was a foot chase involving both Madison Heights (opensky) and Warren (Their own Apco25 system). Warren setup its patch between them and Opensky so the two cities could talk to each other. Madison Heights sounded really bad with the audio being "converted" or however that works. I know this isnt MPSCS but it is still the same kind of system Warren uses.

 

[RayAir]

I have numerous officers out there using the new preps on the new system. They all luv it. Everyday I hear multiple times a day that they LOVE the new Opensky system and they can't wait to start using it. I am not making this up. I am not telling the officers what to say. I just gave them the new radios and let them take them out, test them, use them. I have officers that have never had an interest in radios out side of work now taking their radios home and chatting from home just to test the coverage and see how it works as they move around county. They are excited and eager to start using them.

My point is it is easy to sit on the outside and bad mouth something that you haven't been able to use. But until you use one of the new radios and see first hand that the rumors you hear are not accurate, you can't honestly complain about it. I understand that everyone is upset about not being able to scan Opensky. Sure I wish I could too. But I can't so even I have to deal with the fact that if it is not in my radio, I can't hear it too.

What is the State's radio system going to do to comply with the narrow banding that is coming up? Opensky already has 4 talkpaths per frequency. The states system does not and will have a drastic reduction in coverage as they begin the expensive process of narrow banding. All those agencies that have extra towers may need to scrap up more money for additional towers in the near future. I am very interested in watching what will happen as narrow banding approaches.

That's funny. I have been talking to "real users" of the Open Sky system and they hate it. I am hearing the same things: "Our complaints fall on deaf ears", "we are on our 3rd prep already and 4th or 5th update and still have the same problems". They mentioned numerous system problems. Nobody wants to listen to their complaints. They are just told to "move a little bit this or that way if you can't get a signal with your prep" or told "that's not possible".

I have been in touch recently with Open Sky radio system users and with the permission of the officers, if I get it, I will list all the other problems/numerous officer safety concerns that they told me about.

I think Open Sky problems in Oakland County have been kept under tight wraps for too long.

One police officer actually told me that "Open Sky is the worst radio system ever forced upon public safety".

 

[pjbracing]

That's funny. I have been talking to "real users" of the Open Sky system and they hate it. I am hearing the same things: "Our complaints fall on deaf ears", "we are on our 3rd prep already and 4th or 5th update and still have the same problems". They mentioned numerous system problems. Nobody wants to listen to their complaints. They are just told to "move a little bit this or that way if you can't get a signal with your prep" or told "that's not possible".

I have been in touch recently with Open Sky radio system users and with the permission of the officers, if I get it, I will list all the other problems/numerous officer safety concerns that they told me about.

I think Open Sky problems in Oakland County have been kept under tight wraps for too long.

One police officer actually told me that "Open Sky is the worst radio system ever forced upon public safety".

Let me repeat: "The Emporer has no clothes"

 

[SCPD]

OpenSky

I enjoy the different sides of this argument. I can listen to a limited portion of this system, and so far it's been good. You get a little R2D2 every once in a while, but really no more than I hear on Downrivers system.

May I suggest that the officers that have an issue, be told to discreetly contact the news media about it. Same with Jimmy Livonia. Start wah-wahing to the Observer-Eccentric that you can't help fight crime north of Eight Mile They would love to make a story of that sort of thing.

 

[kd8ati]

I enjoy the different sides of this argument. I can listen to a limited portion of this system, and so far it's been good. You get a little R2D2 every once in a while, but really no more than I hear on Downrivers system.

Wyandotte, It may very well be that the small portion of the system you listen to has no problems. I am curious, what talkgroups are you able to monitor? Maybe they are close to a tower? Just because what you monitor is good, does not mean that there are not problems at all. I myself have heard some transmissions on that system that are so "robotic" that you cant understand them and the dispatcher has them repeat their last.

May I suggest that the officers that have an issue, be told to discreetly contact the news media about it. Same with Jimmy Livonia. Start wah-wahing to the Observer-Eccentric that you can't help fight crime north of Eight Mile They would love to make a story of that sort of thing.

This is the part of your post that does not sit well with me. It is those complaints from those users that fall on deaf ears that will get someone seriously hurt or killed because they could not tell dispatch where they are during a foot pursuit or did not receive an "evac the building" while putting out a fire. You seem to just wave their complaints off as nothing serious. I really do hope I am misinterpreting what you said. These radios NEED to work when these guys need them to. It is their lifeline. When they hit that PTT botton, that radio needs to work, unlike with the Fedex drivers, which is what the system was originally designed for.

As far as Livonia Jimmy goes, he brings up some very valid points in another thread that would fit perfectly here in this thread. May I suggest you read his post here... http://forums.radioreference.com/co...mi-police-scanners-go-silent.html#post1218386

 

[SCPD]

Raising a Ruckus

This is the part of your post that does not sit well with me. It is those complaints from those users that fall on deaf ears that will get someone seriously hurt or killed because they could not tell dispatch where they are during a foot pursuit or did not receive an "evac the building" while putting out a fire. You seem to just wave their complaints off as nothing serious. I really do hope I am misinterpreting what you said. These radios NEED to work when these guys need them to. It is their lifeline. When they hit that PTT botton, that radio needs to work, unlike with the Fedex drivers, which is what the system was originally designed for.

As far as Livonia Jimmy goes, he brings up some very valid points in another thread that would fit perfectly here in this thread. May I suggest you read his post here... http://forums.radioreference.com/co...mi-police-scanners-go-silent.html#post1218386

You are right on all counts. And exactly what path should be took to resolve the issues?

Officers just whining to each other, saying "oh well, I gotta live with it?

What results is some officers whining to you or each other going to achieve? Same with Jimmy Livonia. If you noticed, a page or two back, I actually quoted from the post you are referring to. Here's a Blues Clue, this board is the land of deaf ears. There can be 22 pages of legitimate issues about OpenSky posted here, nothing is going to change until the issues get to the Oakland Press or a TV station.

I found it interesting what you posted about firefighters evacuating a building. You're a ham, let me ask you this question: Why are fireground comms going thru a repeater? You think maybe if the comms were simplex, that would be an issue in the first place? Whoever it is that is programming fireground freqs so that they have to make a machine a dozen miles away while they are in the basement of the structure is the one putting the firefighter's life in danger. This already happened in Delaware. Firefighters could literally see each other and were not able to communicate, and one died. That issue has nothing to do with if it is OpenSky or P25 or analog FM. This is an issue because some paper pusher who has never keyed a mike wants everything recorded.

Please don't hammer me about how good or bad OpenSky is. That's not what I'm saying. I'm just saying that those who do have an issue need to take a proactive approach to resolving it. You have to agree with me, that just posting here, or officers just complaining to others, isn't going to change anything, is it?

 

[RayAir]

You are right on all counts. And exactly what path should be took to resolve the issues?

Officers just whining to each other, saying "oh well, I gotta live with it?

What results is some officers whining to you or each other going to achieve? Same with Jimmy Livonia. If you noticed, a page or two back, I actually quoted from the post you are referring to. Here's a Blues Clue, this board is the land of deaf ears. There can be 22 pages of legitimate issues about OpenSky posted here, nothing is going to change until the issues get to the Oakland Press or a TV station.

I found it interesting what you posted about firefighters evacuating a building. You're a ham, let me ask you this question: Why are fireground comms going thru a repeater? You think maybe if the comms were simplex, that would be an issue in the first place? Whoever it is that is programming fireground freqs so that they have to make a machine a dozen miles away while they are in the basement of the structure is the one putting the firefighter's life in danger. This already happened in Delaware. Firefighters could literally see each other and were not able to communicate, and one died. That issue has nothing to do with if it is OpenSky or P25 or analog FM. This is an issue because some paper pusher who has never keyed a mike wants everything recorded.

Please don't hammer me about how good or bad OpenSky is. That's not what I'm saying. I'm just saying that those who do have an issue need to take a proactive approach to resolving it. You have to agree with me, that just posting here, or officers just complaining to others, isn't going to change anything, is it?

Well the problem with the media is say that someone sends them some info saying Open Sky is dangerous to public safety, etc. What would the media do? They would ask the head of the Oakland County radio oversight committee and get the "no, no, everything is great". Those guys are in so deep they can't go back now. This would need to go to something like "Problem Solvers" and have them talk to the people who use the system, even if it was anonymous.

 

[EndUserBrokenSky]

BrokenSky

I am an enduser of OpenSky. Our radios have been in use for a little over two months. Bugs are being worked out but overall there is alot to be desired. There is little to no reception or transmission inside buildings. As an agency that lies on the outlying border of Oakland County we face real situations where our portables and mobiles just plain do not work in areas where there is no reasonable explanation why there is no coverage. We are being told that these are FCC licensing issues and that there is no way to fix this in the immediate future. However they are in the process of placing an additional tower in the near vicinity, however; due to the FCC licensing they will modulate the tower so that it does not encroach too far into Macomb or Wayne Counties.

M/A Com Harris - OpenSky poses some serious safety issues.

I am being very delicate in voicing my opinions in this forum.

Should we be able to monitor Macomb County Agencies, Wayne County and MSP. Absolutely... It is a travesty that we cannot. The technology is there with different patches and routing, but they are not in use. I would be thrilled just to be able to listen, let alone communicate directly.

To the best of my knowledge we have at least one of the States MSP 800mhz channels (63P911) on our radios, why we dont have multiple channels patched is beyond me.

As far as the pursuit between Madison Heights PD and Warren PD that was addressed earlier, Madison Heights and Royal Oak are in the process of switching over, thier "High Band" radios are on a patch at this time. Which would be why the transmissions would have been horrible (Scratchy and echoed). I would like to hear more about this so I will go to the source and ask.

 

[a29zuk]

I am an enduser of OpenSky. Our radios have been in use for a little over two months. Bugs are being worked out but overall there is alot to be desired. There is little to no reception or transmission inside buildings. As an agency that lies on the outlying border of Oakland County we face real situations where our portables and mobiles just plain do not work in areas where there is no reasonable explanation why there is no coverage. We are being told that these are FCC licensing issues and that there is no way to fix this in the immediate future. However they are in the process of placing an additional tower in the near vicinity, however; due to the FCC licensing they will modulate the tower so that it does not encroach too far into Macomb or Wayne Counties.

M/A Com Harris - OpenSky poses some serious safety issues.

I am being very delicate in voicing my opinions in this forum.

Should we be able to monitor Macomb County Agencies, Wayne County and MSP. Absolutely... It is a travesty that we cannot. The technology is there with different patches and routing, but they are not in use. I would be thrilled just to be able to listen, let alone communicate directly.

To the best of my knowledge we have at least one of the States MSP 800mhz channels (63P911) on our radios, why we dont have multiple channels patched is beyond me.

As far as the pursuit between Madison Heights PD and Warren PD that was addressed earlier, Madison Heights and Royal Oak are in the process of switching over, thier "High Band" radios are on a patch at this time. Which would be why the transmissions would have been horrible (Scratchy and echoed). I would like to hear more about this so I will go to the source and ask.

Just curious, did the previous analog trunked system work fine in the areas that you mentioned? I could hear that system in my living room well into Genesee County using just a duckie antenna.

 

[kd8ati]

Just curious, did the previous analog trunked system work fine in the areas that you mentioned? I could hear that system in my living room well into Genesee County using just a duckie antenna.

From his post, and I could be wrong, it sounds like he is down in the southeast corner of the county, in about the same area as me. Very few of the cities in Oakland County used the old analog 800mhz system outside of the Sheriffs deprtment and amb to hospital comms. However I can tell you from what I have heard from listening to that system quite often, that it is fairly decent. Through it did not have nearly as many users in as many locations. I think it is similar to Washtenaw County. They have a real good signal. I can get them pretty well with my outside antenna and sometimes with my rubber duck, and im in Ferndale!

 

[Josh]

FWIW, Wastenaw's system stinks... it was very poorly planned. Coverage is within the NE part of the County, the two towers are in West Ann Arbor (scio) and Ypsilanti. Go to Manchester or other areas in the SW part of the county, even Chelsea, with a decent radio and mobile antenna and you'll find its horribly inadequate.

The MPSCS sub-system being installed offers a few more towers, more strategically located, and will offer much more than the current system ever could.

I think it was originally designed to work completely off of the ONE Scio Township tower, then in around 1997(?) a second site was installed on the WEMU tower in Ypsi Twp.

 

[bigbluemsp]

FWIW, Wastenaw's system stinks... it was very poorly planned. Coverage is within the NE part of the County, the two towers are in West Ann Arbor (scio) and Ypsilanti. Go to Manchester or other areas in the SW part of the county, even Chelsea, with a decent radio and mobile antenna and you'll find its horribly inadequate.

The MPSCS sub-system being installed offers a few more towers, more strategically located, and will offer much more than the current system ever could.

I think it was originally designed to work completely off of the ONE Scio Township tower, then in around 1997(?) a second site was installed on the WEMU tower in Ypsi Twp.

Your right the old analog system there STUNK like a rotten skunk. So far so good with their transition to the new system. Being able to keep the old tower and retrofit with the newmicrowaves is a huge plus and money saver.

 

[kd8ati]

FWIW, Wastenaw's system stinks... it was very poorly planned. Coverage is within the NE part of the County, the two towers are in West Ann Arbor (scio) and Ypsilanti. Go to Manchester or other areas in the SW part of the county, even Chelsea, with a decent radio and mobile antenna and you'll find its horribly inadequate.

The MPSCS sub-system being installed offers a few more towers, more strategically located, and will offer much more than the current system ever could.

I think it was originally designed to work completely off of the ONE Scio Township tower, then in around 1997(?) a second site was installed on the WEMU tower in Ypsi Twp.

Well... I do not know much about the system. I know even less about the reception from end users on the system or how many dead zones it has. All I can say is that I am way out in the southeast corner of Oakland County and am picking it up with little static on most days. I think that's a pretty decent trip considering I am lucky to be able to pick up the Macomb or Detroit simulcast systems.

As far as the new Washtenaw MPSCS simulcast system goes... it looks like it will be a good improvement to the area. The sad thing is I will not be able to monitor it according to the preliminary coverage maps I have seen. Oh well, hopefully the system will work as planned.