oakland trunk Switching to Rebanded System tomorrow

[officer_415]

What scanner are you using?

I'm using a BCD396XT with the standard whip. Multipath interference would explain my problem, but like Inigo, I assumed that Site 202 was a single tower. If it is indeed a simulcast system, then the symptoms make perfect sense. I occasionally experience a similar problem with MERA. When monitoring the east simulcast, my scanner will sometimes go on the fritz for a few seconds, jumping back and forth between the voice channel and the control channel. I suspect this is caused by multipath inteference between the Mt. Tiburon and Mill Valley City Hall sites, making it hard for my scanner to decode the P25 data. When monitoring the west simulcast I have never had this problem, probably because the signal from the Mt. Tam site dominates anything coming in from Mt. Barnabe or Point Reyes Hill.

I also heard the dispatch for the bridge jumper. It's interesting to hear the frequency of that type of call since SMFD took over for Presidio Fire. It used to be that Rescue 9 or a medic unit would occasionally be dispatched to assist PSF, but now that Station 1 gets all of those calls you get a better sense of how often it happens. As a side note, I've been to one on R9 and it wasn't a pretty sight.

 

[inigo88]

The difference between the MERA simulcast zones and P25-Linear Simulcast Modulation is the type of modulation used. MERA uses the traditional C4FM modulation to transport the IMBE digital data. Project 25 trunking (not P25 digital voice in general, which just refers to IMBE) using LSM uses a different modulation called Continuous Quadrature Phase Shift Keying (CQPSK), which is supposed to be compatible with C4FM but doesn't appear to work too well on current scanners.

That's my understanding of the issue anyway, I'm glad I haven't run into LSM yet!

Edit: Ironically last time I was in the Headlands with a handheld there was a jumper, and we watched and listened to the whole thing from Battery Spencer. The jumper had climbed all the way down to the lower girders of the bridge and gotten cold feet, so Presidio Fire and SMFD rappelled down to get her. A very rare happy ending.

 

[officer_415]

Edit: Ironically last time I was in the Headlands with a handheld there was a jumper, and we watched and listened to the whole thing from Battery Spencer. The jumper had climbed all the way down to the lower girders of the bridge and gotten cold feet, so Presidio Fire and SMFD rappelled down to get her. A very rare happy ending.

I feel like I watched the same call from Fort Baker, except it was GGB ironworkers who went below and retrieved the person. Was there a CHP helicopter overhead watching the person on FLIR?

 

[Retired911Guy]

I'm using a BCD396XT with the standard whip.

Martin, the 996xt-396-xt and GRE 500-600 are listed on the link that Inigo put up as scanners that can handle that LSM control chls.

When I did my little road trip the other day, the 600 picked up 30-40% from Panoramic and about 90-95% from Ft Baker, I took my BC796 with the same Oak P25 setup in it and it froze up on the control cls and did nothing. So your 396xt should work....

Think about this, check the manual if needed, but the 500-600 has a section where you enter the trunk channels that's called "MultiSite". It sets the way the scanner handles multiple control chls.

The 500-600 has 3 settings -

OFF - Stops on first control chl LISTED cks for traffic then scans and ignores the other control chls for that system.

Stationary - Stops at all control cls that are readable to the scanner for the system and cks for traffic.

Roam - Works like a cel phones, continuously cks for quality of control chls and cks for new control chls. Uses the best control chl available.

Now I'm sure your BC isn't set up exactly the same way, but the link said 396xt-996xt works with LSM.

If it has similar settings, here is the problem with my 600 and MERA.

East vs West
OFF - checks only the first control listed (east or west?)
Stationary - checks all controls (so if you load west controls before east, you miss a lot of east traffic)
Roam - Always grabs Mt Tam West and doesn't change because where You and I live it is the Best Quality.

I use Stationary and loaded MERA controls cls from the East first, then the West second. Works pretty well.

Your 396xt should have something that allows you to control your control chls, otherwise it wouldn't be list as OK for LSM.

A second mention again, if you're using just the whip, I still think you may to preamp to get OAK P25. Refer back to the top of the post Panoramic 30-40% - Ft Baker 90-95%

You may have both problems, a control chl setting and need to preamp...

Dave

 

[inigo88]

I feel like I watched the same call from Fort Baker, except it was GGB ironworkers who went below and retrieved the person. Was there a CHP helicopter overhead watching the person on FLIR?

Haha you're right I think it was the iron workers but there were a bunch of Presidio/SMFD engines on the bridge as well. Also I think the helicopter was a USCG HH-65 Dolphin (although maybe H-30/32 showed up later?). Maybe two very similar incidents?

When I did my little road trip the other day, the 600 picked up 30-40% from Panoramic and about 90-95% from Ft Baker, I took my BC796 with the same Oak P25 setup in it and it froze up on the control cls and did nothing. So your 396xt should work....

Think about this, check the manual if needed, but the 500-600 has a section where you enter the trunk channels that's called "MultiSite". It sets the way the scanner handles multiple control chls.

Hey Dave, regarding LSM - LSM is not the same as having multiple control channels. MERA has an "East simulcast zone" and a "West simulcast zone." The Motorola Smartzone zone controller computer treats them like individual sites. However the East Zone is actually a collection of many towers all transmitting simultaneously (Mt Tiburon, Forbes Hill Reservoir, Dollar Hill, San Pedro Hill, Big Rock Ridge and Mt Burdell) on the SAME control channel at the same time. This is done by using a complex receiver voting system and by using precise GPS-synchronized delay timers at each transmitter to ensure all the signals reach the desired coverage area at once. Your scanner will happily remain on "Site 1" on 488.7 MHz or 489.075 MHz while driving around between these six towers, and you will be none the wiser (assuming the simulcasting was set up well). The West Zone works the same way, with Point Reyes Hill, Mt Barnabe and Mt Tam simulcasting. The only individual "Sites" in the conventional sense of the word on MERA are the Intellirepeaters (Quantar repeaters with no site controller attached) at Bay Hills (Bodega), Stewart Point (Bolinas) and Sonoma Mountain.

If Oakland's P25 system is simulcasting in the same manner the MERA east zone does, there would be no reason to use Multi-Site modes on the PSR-600 because all towers would be on the same control channel. Their FCC license WQNH478 says they have sites at 1111 Broadway, Gwin Reservoir (Grizzly Peak), Seneca Reservoir and Grass Valley Rd (just north of Lake Chabot). If nobody can identify any control channel frequencies belonging to Site 101 or 303, I'd be willing to venture a guess that Site 202 is simulcasting from those four locations.

The issue with LSM not working as well (if they even are using LSM) is the change in digital modulation used, from the original "C4FM" mode to "CPQSK" mode. Even though CPQSK is supposed to be backwards compatible, scanners (including the PSR-500/600 and newer Unidens) still have a hard time with it apparently even though the manufacturers say it should work - at least that's according to what I've read. Apparently sometimes the only solution is to either be in the middle of the intended coverage area (this isn't always good enough) or single out one of the transmitter sites with a yagi antenna.

Hope that helps! However the fact that you could decode 90-95% of the P25 system from Ft Baker is promising!

 

[inigo88]

Just received some word on the Oakland EDACS system saying that Patrol 1 changed to talkgroup 2043 (15-153) and that "East Oakland is on Patrol 5."

I think we need more information before changing anything in the DB, and I don't really believe this. Can anyone confirm Patrol 1, 2 and 3 are still the same on the EDACS system as they appear in the DB?

I am willing to bet that all the AFS talkgroups starting with 15-xxx are dedicated to Oakland PD console patching, as we already have a "Citywide" patch identified there.

 

[Retired911Guy]

As of last night all 5 patrol chls were being used with different dispatchers (ie: not simulcasting) , but they were also simulcasting on 15-153, 15-154 & 15-155 with the patrol chls split up as which of the 15-xxx chls they were on.

Last night Patrol 5 was simo with 15-153, Patrol 2 was simo with 15-154 and couldn't tell what was simo to 15-155

This AM Patrol 2 was simo to 15-153 and patrol 5 was active but NOT simo'd to 15-153 as last night.
Patrol 1 is also working right now and is also simo on 15-153.

I am now picking up the so-called citywide, or I would call them simulcast TGs better than the patrol chls. This would make sense as to be a simo or citywide chl you would have to cover more area the just the more local beat patrol chls. (maybe less directional, less down tilt? don't know)

I did hear about an hr ago a broadcast on one of the 15-xxx TGs (forget which one) "any unit that had their radio reprogrammed please call xxxx for pickup", so they are still working on setting the whole system up, don't know if it will some kind hybrid P25-Edacs system or what, but for a City as cash strapped as OAK is you have to wonder why they are completely rebuilding the Edac system.

I would agree with you Inigo, don't start changing the db until we know where this is going. However, patrol 3 East is dead right now and is on patrol 5, it may be temporary while reprogramming takes place.

I am monitoring closely, will advise... (kind of like have gun will travel) Oh, I remember you're to young to remember that...

Edit: Just heard @ 19:03 PST the same broadcast about picking up reprogrammed radios on Patrol 1, also just heard car-car on patrol 3, so it's still running but maybe down for dispatch while reprogramming.

Edit: 19:23 PST -BIG NOTE>>> Dispatcher on Patrol 1 just signed off and said changing to dispatcher "ID" on VEHICLE ONE, which I believe does mean that one system will be VEHICLES and the other HandHelds.

Dave

 

[inigo88]

Here's the Oakland PD Beat Map, straight from their website:

http://www2.oaklandnet.com/oakca/groups/police/documents/image/oak025561.pdf

From what I can remember the beat is the last two digits of the unit ID (for instance "1L25"). I believe the sergeants are up in the 60s-70s range. If I remember correctly High St is the boundary between Patrol 2 & Patrol 3, and the boundary between Patrol 1 & Patrol 2 is right around Lake Merritt. Using the unit IDs combined with addresses of calls you should be able to figure out which talkgroups correspond to which area.

Remember there is also "Service 1" and "Service 2", which are extra dispatchers that just run inquiry/records checks. It is easy to tell because officers ask to be added "to the list", which is a queue of officers waiting their turn to run a DL or get specific information follow up information from the dispatcher (poor OPD). I think Service 2 is only staffed in the day and is mostly 11-85 requests, otherwise it's patched with Service 1.

"Simulcasting" the 13-xxx Patrol talkgroups with the 15-xxx talkgroups is bloody peculiar. Maybe there are two different versions of the programming out in the field, and one has the 13-xxx talkgroup and the other has the 15-xxx talkgroup for the same channel, so they have to multi-select them. The theory that they're P25 in the mobiles and EDACS in the portables is also possible, although what you said could also mean the dispatcher was working out of a parked patrol car (I've seen it happen!!!).

I think the only reasonable solution is that someone with Unitrunker needs to go to the System tab, click on Patches and tell us what's really going on. I'm looking at you Radiobern...

 

[officer_415]

Just received some word on the Oakland EDACS system saying that Patrol 1 changed to talkgroup 2043 (15-153) and that "East Oakland is on Patrol 5."

I think we need more information before changing anything in the DB, and I don't really believe this. Can anyone confirm Patrol 1, 2 and 3 are still the same on the EDACS system as they appear in the DB?

I am willing to bet that all the AFS talkgroups starting with 15-xxx are dedicated to Oakland PD console patching, as we already have a "Citywide" patch identified there.

I listened in for a bit just now. Patrol 1 & 2 are patched together on 15-153, and Patrol 4 & 5 are patched together on 15-155. I didn't hear any traffic on Patrol 3.

 

[cozmo]

Changed talk groups

OPD changed the patrol area's around a little starting at midnight this morning July 9. Now they are calling area 1 and 2 VFO 1 on Patrol 1 and area 3 and 4 VFO 2 on Patrol 5 Not sure what VFO means, The dispatcher's were announcing that every fifteen minutes up until midnight when they made the change.
I am receiving West Oakland and part's of Central Oakland on Patrol 1. The rest of Oakland is on Patrol 5.
Both have different patch ID's. 2043 2045.

I hope this info help's.

Rick.

 

[Retired911Guy]

Here's the Oakland PD Beat Map, straight from their website:

http://www2.oaklandnet.com/oakca/groups/police/documents/image/oak025561.pdf

From what I can remember the beat is the last two digits of the unit ID (for instance "1L25").

spent several hrs last night writing down unit #s and addresses then looking them up in Google maps then looking at the beat map and they do match for the most part.

I don't think they are changing the Chls that cover the different beats, As of 8PM tonight this is what they were doing.

Patrol 1 & 2 same dispatcher NOT patching P-1 & P2 together, but simulcasting on to city 1 if you will 15-153

Patrol 4 & 5 same dispatcher NOT patching P-4 & P5 together, but simulcasting on to city 3 if you will 15-155

Patrol 3 car-car

city 2 15-154 nothing on at this time.

And yes all 5 patrol chls were operating last night and I know what serv 1 & 2 are and it wasn't them.

Dave

 

[cozmo]

Oh ok that's good to know. I thought they changed their VFO officer's around so that they were only using two patrol channels instead of three. I was seeing patch ID's as well using a wildcard search on my PSR 500.

 

[inigo88]

OPD changed the patrol area's around a little starting at midnight this morning July 9. Now they are calling area 1 and 2 VFO 1 on Patrol 1 and area 3 and 4 VFO 2 on Patrol 5 Not sure what VFO means, The dispatcher's were announcing that every fifteen minutes up until midnight when they made the change.
I am receiving West Oakland and part's of Central Oakland on Patrol 1. The rest of Oakland is on Patrol 5.
Both have different patch ID's. 2043 2045.

I hope this info help's.

Rick.

Thanks very helpful! I'll bet you they're saying BFO 1 and BFO 2. They replaced Areas 1 through 5 with the two BFOs apparently. The latest beat map from their website which I just linked to has the boundaries, BFO 1 is the yellow shading and BFO 2 is the blue shading. According to OPD's website BFO means "Bureau of Field Operations," so they've reorganized the patrol officers into only two divisions instead of 5.

Patrol 1 & 2 same dispatcher NOT patching P-1 & P2 together, but simulcasting on to city 1 if you will 15-153

Patrol 4 & 5 same dispatcher NOT patching P-4 & P5 together, but simulcasting on to city 3 if you will 15-155

Patrol 3 car-car

city 2 15-154 nothing on at this time.

And yes all 5 patrol chls were operating last night and I know what serv 1 & 2 are and it wasn't them.

Thanks for the update Dave! Sorry I didn't mean to doubt you, I just didn't realize how much they're changing things around in the department since I last listened to them.

 

[cozmo]

It seems like the control channel for the P25 system is not as strong as the Edacs one.

 

[Retired911Guy]

Thanks for the update Dave! Sorry I didn't mean to doubt you, I just didn't realize how much they're changing things around in the department since I last listened to them.

Inigo,

Sorry to you, I was a little testy, stayed up last night/this morning til 5am logging OPD chls, TGs, patches, addresses and beats. I'm tired and grumpy right now, and I'm diabetic and I have eaten since 1PM so I'm testy too.

BTW I did see the BFO on the beat map last night, Cozmo mentioned VFOs. First thing I thought was Vehicle Frequency Operations, always trying to push my idea that they are going to combine the systems somehow. (the dispatcher did say signing off of VEHICLE ONE)

Maybe Cozmo misheard VFO for BFO, I did just hear a dispatcher put out a BOL that fo something that occurred in BFO 2.
(I worked with a FF at SRFD whose FD nick was Cosmo, any relation)

And I checked all to notes from last night/this morning and only Patrols 1-2-4-5 were active, Patrol 3 was dead, could could have CC overnight but the 4 Patrol chls were so busy it hard to keep tract of it all.

I did find 10 new P25 TGs but because they were so broken I couldn't tell what they were, I think one of them was Serv 2 and is marked as that with ? but didn't hear it again. I'll list them even though this is the EDACS thread, maybe someone reading this will know what they are and SUBMIT them to the db.

Sorry, in order that I found them, not TG order
065522 P25 Serv 2??
065514 P25 Unk 1
065510 P25 Unk 2
065502 P25 Unk 3
065501 P25 Unk 4
065519 P25 Unk 5
065527 P25 Unk 6
031921 P25 Unk 7
031922 P25 Unk 8
031572 P25 Unk 9
065517 P25 Unk 10
EDIT:
these just popped up
065526 P25 Unk 11
065504 P25 Unk 12
031558 P25 Unk 13

Dave

 

[cozmo]

No relation. Do you know if there are any other freq's for site 202 or Seneca ? I'm missing some of the reply's between dispatch and the field unit's. Even on the Seneca site. I got them off RR database. I have a PSR500 scanner. Maybe I have the setting's wrong ?

 

[Retired911Guy]

No relation. Do you know if there are any other freq's for site 202 or Seneca ? I'm missing some of the reply's between dispatch and the field unit's. Even on the Seneca site. I got them off RR database. I have a PSR500 scanner. Maybe I have the setting's wrong ?

I have no other Freqs other than what's listed in the db.

Not sure i you're talking about the P25 or Edacs, site 202 would be P25, Seneca isn't listed by on the P25 db, only on the Edacs db.

On the P25 I just entered all of the freqs listed in case they change the control chls or some of the sort. I have the system type as P25 Auto

On the Edacs make sure you follow the LCN - You have to put the freqs as 2 different trunk systems Broadway and Seneca, and on Broadway make sure you leave a blank line for freq 3.

Dave

 

[cozmo]

I'm now using my old Radio Shack Pro 164 and everything seems to be working fine for EDACS. Must be the psr500 scanner that has bugs.

 

[officer_415]

Martin, the 996xt-396-xt and GRE 500-600 are listed on the link that Inigo put up as scanners that can handle that LSM control chls.

When I did my little road trip the other day, the 600 picked up 30-40% from Panoramic and about 90-95% from Ft Baker, I took my BC796 with the same Oak P25 setup in it and it froze up on the control cls and did nothing. So your 396xt should work....

I took my scanner down to Fort Baker today, but my reception there was no better than at my house. I'm starting to buy Inigo's theory that P25 LSM is to blame. It seems that my scanner has trouble decoding the P25 data no matter how strong the signal is. The only thing I can think of now is going to downtown Oakland and seeing if it works when I'm within the intended coverage area...

 

[Retired911Guy]

Well Martin,

Looks like Maybe BC overstated their ability to decode LSM.

I have read in other threads about P25 that the GRE & Radio Shack radios made by GRE decode P25 cleaner and more crisp than the BCs do.

I have tested my 600 along side my BC796 with same antenna on MERA and the GRE does come through much cleaner.

You may be out of luck on this one, except for the fact that everything on OAK P25 is simulcast to Edacs. (you know the handheld system)

Dave