oakland trunk Switching to Rebanded System tomorrow

[Retired911Guy]

Interesting Report/Plans for the OAK System from the City Clerks Office.

Basically says Gwen/Grizzly P25 was up in 2007 but won't be integrated into the main P25 until 2012 and when all the P25 sites are up, Edacs will be used by non-PS city agencies only.

http://oakland.legistar.com/View.ashx?M=F&ID=1343702&GUID=730737B9-46F4-4305-A722-DBC729C3B684

 

[kma371]

Don't know if this has been confirmed or not but I got this info

BFO1: districts 1-3 West area
Patrol 1&2

BFO2: districts 4-6 East area
Patrol 4&5

Patrol 3 is tac/talk channel.

 

[b52hbuff]

You guys are doing a great job of getting information together for the new system. I'm on the edge of the reception zone, so I only end up listening casually when I travel closer to Oakland.

I was hoping I could ask comments on some of the new information getting posted in the database. I had a hard time figuring out what 'BFO' meant. I finally searched through the thread and found this excellent post:
http://forums.radioreference.com/sa...g-rebanded-system-tomorrow-6.html#post1570389

The description uses this abbreviation, without further text as:
Police Patrol 1 - BFO 1 (West Dispatch)

Given the confusion about BFO, I was hoping to add the description in the field:
Patrol 1 - Bureau of Field Operations (BFO) 1 (West Dispatch)

Technically, we can get rid of Police, since all of these descriptions are contained within a subcategory of 'Oakland Police Talkgroups', which already describe the group of TGIDs as police related.

What do folks think of making the change for these TGID descriptions as well as in the EDACS system?

Thanks...

 

[Retired911Guy]

P25 and Edacs Seneca change control chls

P25 has changed from 851.1750 which it has been on for a couple of weeks, control chl is now 852.2875.

This change occurred about 1:36pm PST. Pro96com was monitoring the old 851.1750 when all traffic stopped logging.

While 852.2875 was the new control chl, 851.1750 continued to put a control chl sounding signal but the GRE600 could not decode it as P25 and no voice data was showing up on Pro96com for that chl.

Around 4:30pm PST voice signals started to show up on 851.1750 and has been going strong since.
(This change is unfortunate for me because the 851.1750 was a stronger signal, the 852.2875 a weaker signal, get about 10-15% less packets showing on Pro96com)

Meanwhile, Seneca Edacs control chl changed from 852.1375 to 852.7250

I have not been able to listen to seneca as a trunk with the control chl for a few weeks, but have been able to hear voice traffic while in conv mode. The voice traffic while in conv mode is preceded by a P25 sounding like data burst which it never did in years past. This may be telling the P25 units in the area to switch to analog mode for the next TG traffic. (just a thought) I have not tried seneca as a trunk with the new control chl yet. But the data bursts are still there in conv mode.

I think that maybe right now Seneca is acting as a satellite site to Broadway and traffic is being relayed to Broadway via the microwave system. I can't see any other way that units in the far south end of town (or east as it's called for some reason, even though maps show Oakland as a North-South town)(such as BFO2 and Fire) could communicate with the P25 system and transmit their traffic on the P25 system. (just another thought)

EDIT: I put this in bfore but it somehow got dropped, Sencea is transmitting ONLY FD and PW units, NO PD units. So how are they getting to Broadway P25 from the East-South end of town??

Dave
(better stop having thoughts, smell wood burning)

EDIT: Forgot to mention matched another P25 TG -- 31578 OPD Tac 7 matched with Edacs 12-052 (will submit)
EDIT: Have only heard FD and PW units on Seneca data burst/voice, no PD units, how is their traffic from the (South or East) getting to P25??

 

[Ben96cal]

The edacs system is much stronger this morning from the peninsula.. 2-3 bars normally have turned into 5-6..

 

[Retired911Guy]

The edacs system is much stronger this morning from the peninsula.. 2-3 bars normally have turned into 5-6..

The Fog/Wind must be blowing the radio waves your way.

I'm in Southern Marin and my radio waves are mostly blocked by someones hill (that we all know and love) so I get weak OAK signals anyway, but when the Fog comes in my OAK & other south signals almost disappear, but Edacs is coming in better than normal for a HEAVY FOG day, but is still breaking right now, yesterday it was nice and clear (both fog and radio).

My P25 signal is down to 40-50% but Pro96com is picking out what it can.

Dave

 

[Retired911Guy]

The edacs system is much stronger this morning from the peninsula.. 2-3 bars normally have turned into 5-6..

Are you listening to Broadway or Seneca?

Seneca has changed it's control chl again! since yesterday, it's now on 853.2000 which I barely pickup.

Dave

 

[officer_415]

Update

I'm back in town for the weekend. BFO 1 is using Patrol 1, and BFO 2 is using Patrol 5. Both channels are patched together during the day.

 

[Retired911Guy]

And, P25 and Edacs Broadway & Seneca have changed control channels again.

P25 control is now 852.8875
Edacs Broadway control is now 851.4500
Edacs Seneca control is now 851.7125

Not sure if techs are changing these around or they somehow for some reason change on their own, but last night when P25 changed at about 10:15pm PST OPD & OFD were reporting radio problems for several hours.

Dave

 

[officer_415]

Not sure if techs are changing these around or they somehow for some reason change on their own, but last night when P25 changed at about 10:15pm PST OPD & OFD were reporting radio problems for several hours.

Isn't it normal for control channels to rotate regularly, especially on EDACS systems?

 

[inigo88]

Yes, EDACS systems can be set to rotate the control channel through all the LCNs. Since you have to program in every freq in LCN order anyway, we don't bother highlighting control channels in red in the DB. P25 on the other hand may only have one or two primary control channels ("c" in pro96com) and we highlight those in red, to allow you to program those systems in "control channel only mode."

 

[cozmo]

'''Police Patch Talkgroups (Temporary)'''
-----------------------------------------
Dec AFS Mode Alpha Description Tag
1544 12-010 A Patrol 2-3 Patrol 2-3 Patch Law Dispatch
1549 12-015 A Service 1-2 Service 1-2 Patch Law Dispatch
1591 12-067 A Patrol 1-2-3 Patrol 1-2-3 Patch Law Dispatch
1595 12-073 A Service 1-2 Service 1-2 Patch Law Dispatch
1612 12-094 A Ptrl 3 Patch Patrol 3 Patch Law Dispatch
1622 12-106 A Patrol 2-3 Patrol 2-3 Patch Law Dispatch
1638 12-126 A P1-P2-P3 Patrol 1-2-3 Patch Law Dispatch
1639 12-127 A P1-P2-P3 Patrol 1-2-3 Patch Law Dispatch


Any idea if these are being used ?

 

[officer_415]

'''Police Patch Talkgroups (Temporary)'''
-----------------------------------------
Dec AFS Mode Alpha Description Tag
1544 12-010 A Patrol 2-3 Patrol 2-3 Patch Law Dispatch
1549 12-015 A Service 1-2 Service 1-2 Patch Law Dispatch
1591 12-067 A Patrol 1-2-3 Patrol 1-2-3 Patch Law Dispatch
1595 12-073 A Service 1-2 Service 1-2 Patch Law Dispatch
1612 12-094 A Ptrl 3 Patch Patrol 3 Patch Law Dispatch
1622 12-106 A Patrol 2-3 Patrol 2-3 Patch Law Dispatch
1638 12-126 A P1-P2-P3 Patrol 1-2-3 Patch Law Dispatch
1639 12-127 A P1-P2-P3 Patrol 1-2-3 Patch Law Dispatch


Any idea if these are being used ?

No, they're not. All OPD patching on the rebanded EDACS system has been on 15-153, 15-154, and 15-155.

 

[WayneH]

While 852.2875 was the new control chl, 851.1750 continued to put a control chl sounding signal but the GRE600 could not decode it as P25 and no voice data was showing up on Pro96com for that chl.

This data being sent out is for coverage testing. It's basically BERT (bit error rate tests) but over the air. The format (V-something) is common. You'll often hear it on trunked systems using P25 voice when they're in their beginning stages.

Isn't it normal for control channels to rotate regularly, especially on EDACS systems?

For EDACS and newer systems, no. Older Motorola trunked systems that used a 6809 controller (and were not under the control of a SmartZone system) rotated regularly. Since stations are now continuous duty there's no longer a need to save wear on the equipment. So why would one switch? When manually done by a tech or an abnormal system event like interference or a hardware issue.

 

[Retired911Guy]

Thanks for clearing this up WayneH, I had to believe that it was the techs changing the control channels around to check coverage or to change antennas or move them around to check for coverage.

In that vane, the OAK P25 sys has changed Control Chls twice in the last three days. I didn't report the last one because it was one of the ones listed in the db was a control chl.

This new change just occurred today and is 853.3375 which is NOT listed as a control channel in the db, so again as I posted previously, because the techs are changing these control chls around if you ONLY have the control chls listed in the db in your scanner, you should consider putting ALL of the channels listed in the db in your trunk channel section, so that when they change around you can still pick them up.

ALSO, a second question regarding BC Scanners, most all of the posts I've seen about BCs is that they are NOT able to decode the OAK P25 system.

The Uniden Website under Tech & DLs says that for a REBANDED P25 system that USES a MODIFIED Control Channel Format, you MUST use a BANDPLAN (for BCs Scanners of course).

You must DL their newest firmware upgrade to allow you to enter a bandplan for a Mot800 system, you must enter it manually directly at the scanner if you use the ARC250 software it doesn't support 800 bandplans YET (they say from tech support ). I don't know about the other popular WIN scanner software.

Pro96com shows under ID Tables
ID,Base Freq,Spacing,Input Offset,Assumed/Confirmed,BandWidth,Slots
00,851.01250,0.01250,-45.00000,"Confirmed",0.00625,1

Below is what the BC bandplan for Mot800 asks for and what I have tried.
Basefreq upperfreq spacing offset polarity
851.01250 854.4150 (a Guess) 12.5 450 minus

This helps a little, instead of nothing, it does show the correct TG and changes to the correct Freq, but I get broken choppy unintelligible garble, but you can tell it's human voices.

I checked other Mot800 systems both P25 and NON-P25 and all of them show the SPACING and BANDWIDTH as the same IE:
Spacing 0.01250 BANDWIDTH 0.01250 or
Spacing 0.00625 BANDWIDTH 0.00625

The OAK Pro96com readings Show (as shown above)
Spacing 0.01250 BANDWIDTH 0.00625

WayneH
1. Have you seen this before, is this normal?
2. How can you fit a Spacing of 0.01250 in a BANDWIDTH 0.00625? (or do I not understand Spacing and Bandwidth correctly)
3. Do you think this is what Uniden is calling a modified control chl format and/or why BCs can't decode the OAK P25?

And any others can you suggest another bandplan than the one I tried, I did fiddle around with other Upper Freqs and other things with no better results.

I realize this is mostly technical question and may belong somewhere else, however it IS directly related the OAK P25 system.

Dave

 

[Retired911Guy]

Changes in P25 & Edacs

The P25 system is running in the below manner, Chl 1 is Control, then it going through 2-7 in first come first served manner.

as you can see Chl seven has been hit 12 times which means they had system saturation at those times. I don't know if this the normal way to run a system, or the techs are testing for system saturation.

This started about 7pm PST last night and this tower count (from Pro96com) ended about 12:30pm PST today.

Channel,Use,Frequency,Input Frequency,Hit Count
"00-0013","c",851.17500,806.17500,--------0
"00-0102","v",852.28750,807.28750,--------4752
"00-0150","v",852.88750,807.88750,--------2518
"00-0186","v",853.33750,808.33750,---------975
"00-0226","v",853.83750,808.83750,---------261
"00-0254","v",854.18750,809.18750,---------70
"00-0272","v",854.41250,809.41250,---------12

Edacs: During the above changes Edacs Broadway dropped OPD P5 but came back later.
Edacs: Seneca for the last couple of weeks had been transmitting most PD, FD and PW traffic, last night and right now it is transmitting PW only.

My BC still can NOT decode the Seneca Control Channel, but the GRE does fine, so Seneca seems to be using a modified Control Chl Format as is P25 that BC scanners can't decode, but GREs can. (I'm listening to Seneca in conventional mode and it's still analog traffic.

According to this plan that Martin posted a while ago, and the letter from the City Clerks Office outlining the status of the system upgrade they still have a lot of work to do.

APL (Broadway): 9 channels
GWIN: 3 channels
Fire Station 28: 1 channel
Seneca: 4 channels

Dave

 

[WayneH]

The Uniden Website under Tech & DLs says that for a REBANDED P25 system that USES a MODIFIED Control Channel Format, you MUST use a BANDPLAN (for BCs Scanners of course).

This goes for the older Motorola trunked systems that use the 3600 control channel (SF 800, ALCO, Santa Clara, etc). True P25 (9600) trunking does not require a custom bandplan unless the radio fails to get this from the control channel (like how PRO96COM does). 700MHz will always be true P25 trunking (9600). It's confusing at first.

 

[cozmo]

Not getting Patrol 5 / BFO 2 on the Broadway EDACS system. Is there a new talk group ID or something? Or is it just down for now?
Patrol 1 / BFO 1 works fine.

 

[cozmo]

Nothing on any of these patches either. 2043, 2044, 2045 for Broadway EDACS system.

 

[cozmo]

Patrol 3 on the Broadway EDACS system seems to not be working either.