Oneida County VHF P25 Trunking?

nacsr

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Yes it has to do with consoles. When the consoles are running on the CNYICC system, the are attached to the Onondaga Master site, which means all audio passes through the master site. The actual voting and simulcast control is done though a "Prime Site Controller" which is local to the county.



Simulcast has nothing to do with "adding a repeater to the input." Simulcast is the simultaneous co-channel transmission of the same signal in an overlapping geographic area. Ideally the simulcast signal is timed so when coverage areas overlap the singal arrive at the receiver at the same time. When two signals arrive at the receiver at the same time their power is additive. When they arrive out of sync, the signal is reduced or cancelled. FM analog simulcast is very susceptive to variances in TX launch time, audio tone and location. The first two are easy to manage, the third can be nearly impossible in some areas and designs.

So,my question is, are the end users of this system having problems, are they satisfied? That's what's important as it can be a life or death situation. Is the system performing and meeting Public Safety's needs?
 

studgeman

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So,my question is, are the end users of this system having problems, are they satisfied? That's what's important as it can be a life or death situation. Is the system performing and meeting Public Safety's needs?

Short answer right now the answer is a resounding YES there are problems(This isn't a scanner issue) NO they aren't satisfied. WHENthe system actually works properly it should be an incremental operational improvement. There shouldn't be any major improvements in coverage as no new sites were added. Motorola was still working on it. The County is still withholding money.

What has it been 4 months(?) and /\/\ still hasn't gotten the bugs out. That begs a lot of questions about process and capabilities.

Please keep in mind that to alert Fire and EMS an Analog paging system is required, even if all the other communications were moved to a digital trunk system. Even if the County were to continue to build out the trunked system, the conventional analog simulcast is still necessary. One does not replace the other.
 

nacsr

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Oneida County

Good reply Studgeman, as always. Any word on when the Griffiss tower is coming online?
 

Prospect62

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We all know whose brain child this project was.

Don't get me started...

Short answer right now the answer is a resounding YES there are problems(This isn't a scanner issue) NO they aren't satisfied. WHENthe system actually works properly it should be an incremental operational improvement. There shouldn't be any major improvements in coverage as no new sites were added. Motorola was still working on it. The County is still withholding money.

What has it been 4 months(?) and /\/\ still hasn't gotten the bugs out. That begs a lot of questions about process and capabilities.

Please keep in mind that to alert Fire and EMS an Analog paging system is required, even if all the other communications were moved to a digital trunk system. Even if the County were to continue to build out the trunked system, the conventional analog simulcast is still necessary. One does not replace the other.

End users of the digital system are not satisfied, as you point out. I am an end user.

End users of the conventional system, reliable and consistent for years, are ALSO not satisfied now.

What you point out about fire paging is correct, and even if it weren't it would be foolish to try to push the remaining users on the conventional system over to the digital even IF it worked well, which it does not. There are people here on this board, and around the county claiming "it's coming" but its not. There's no way this marginal system gets built out to rural (even suburban) areas of the county with any expectation of reliability, any time in the foreseeable future. And I sincerely hope that this conventional system issue gets resolved forthwith as patience is waning.

Simulcast has nothing to do with "adding a repeater to the input." Simulcast is the simultaneous co-channel transmission of the same signal in an overlapping geographic area. Ideally the simulcast signal is timed so when coverage areas overlap the singal arrive at the receiver at the same time. When two signals arrive at the receiver at the same time their power is additive. When they arrive out of sync, the signal is reduced or cancelled. FM analog simulcast is very susceptive to variances in TX launch time, audio tone and location. The first two are easy to manage, the third can be nearly impossible in some areas and designs.

Yes, in theory. What did they do in reality though? I honestly do not believe this was ever a true simulcast as you define it. The only difference I ever noted was I could hear transmitting units in the field more clearly, almost as if they just added a repeater onto the existing repeater input frequencies. Signal strength in general never got better. Again, these are my observations as a layman "end user" and occasional home listener.
 
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DaveNF2G

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There are two meanings of "simulcast" in the radio industry.

One is the one used by studgeman and involves multiple transmitters on the same frequency.

The other also applies to the Oneida County system. The same information being transmitted simultaneously on different frequencies is also a simulcast.
 

Prospect62

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There are two meanings of "simulcast" in the radio industry.

One is the one used by studgeman and involves multiple transmitters on the same frequency.

The other also applies to the Oneida County system. The same information being transmitted simultaneously on different frequencies is also a simulcast.

That's interesting because I would have thought what Oneida County was trying to do (or telling people they were doing) is what Studgeman said, which is transmit the same information/signal from multiple transmitter sites simultaneously (although I don't think that's what we ended up getting), e.g. broadcasting the conventional MRD signal across all 4 towers at the same time. Same frequency, multiple sites/transmitters, broadcasting the same signal simultaneously. That's what I thought we were getting. Again this is the conventional system.
 
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DaveNF2G

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From the descriptions in this thread, the conventional and trunked systems are simulcasting each other. Hence the second type of simulcasting.
 

Prospect62

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Same receiver, same place, same antenna, same day (transmissions were about a minute apart). Signals coming from the same 911 center. The only difference is the frequency.

Oneida County Fire Contol
https://streamable.com/53ei6

Oneida County MRD
https://streamable.com/32bq2

My radio is a conventional, analog GE MDX radio. As you can see, it hears fire loud and clear with zero distortion. MRD on the same receiver - audio is awful. Knowing how the conventional system works, both of these transmissions were made on the same tower. The signal strength of MRD is all there - the static comes across with the message.

This radio picks up NYSP, some car to car and local fire home alert simplex transmissions loud and clear. It's not the receiver.

I am in the center of the county, 10 miles from the Oriskany tower, 9 miles from Starr tower, 34 miles from Florence, 26 miles from MCI and 20 miles from the Prospect tower. Fire is crystal clear regardless of who is talking - in fact fire is working just amazingly. MRD...sucks.

The odd part is that in other areas of the county, it's just the opposite from what I am experiencing.
 
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Prospect62

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Been better for a few days. I'm trying to rule out an anomaly and hoping it's actually been repaired. They were doing 10 counts and testing on fire control in the wee hours of the morning a couple days ago.
 

studgeman

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The money referenced here allocated to 911 systems, phone, wireless calls etc. basically inside the 911 Center.

They County is trying for additional P25 sites, but are waiting for additional state funding.
 
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New York State Talkgroups
144 T NYLAW CENTER (Pronounced “Nye-Law-Center) Inter-agency

State wide law enforcement interoperability trunked channel
PERMITTED USES: Law Enforcement Inter-agency communications of a tactical or operational nature
 

Thunderknight

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New York State Talkgroups
144 T NYLAW CENTER (Pronounced “Nye-Law-Center) Inter-agency

State wide law enforcement interoperability trunked channel
PERMITTED USES: Law Enforcement Inter-agency communications of a tactical or operational nature

Didn’t you previously ID that talk group as Mercy Flight? (About 2 pages back)

There is no NYLAW Center that I’ve ever heard of. NYLAW1 is a VHF law common simplex channel. I’m not sure how you draw the conclusion it is a “State wide law enforcement interoperability trunked channel”

What is the nature of the radio traffic you have been hearing?
 

GTR8000

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A knowledgeable local believes that TG 144 is related to the NYS DHSES/OEM "Watch Center"
 
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Unit 938 144 T NYS LAW

Didn’t you previously ID that talk group as Mercy Flight? (About 2 pages back)

There is no NYLAW Center that I’ve ever heard of. NYLAW1 is a VHF law common simplex channel. I’m not sure how you draw the conclusion it is a “State wide law enforcement interoperability trunked channel”

What is the nature of the radio traffic you have been hearing?


Unit ID from TG 144 below:
6586014
6500431
8424001
8429065
8429066

Range Testing on TG 144 on State Route 20, and State Route 8.
Range Testing on the Oneida Simulcast Site , Onondaga Simulcast and Madison Simulcast sites.

Unit 938 was testing and used NYS LAW interoperability trunked channel and talked to Dispatch .
Unit 938 was testing on Monday 12/10/2018 Saturday 12/08/2018 and also on Friday 12/07/2018.

Three (3) days in a row I heard Unit 938 Range Testing on TG 144
 

MegaHertz315

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Unit ID from TG 144 below:
6586014
6500431
8424001
8429065
8429066

Range Testing on TG 144 on State Route 20, and State Route 8.
Range Testing on the Oneida Simulcast Site , Onondaga Simulcast and Madison Simulcast sites.

Unit 938 was testing and used NYS LAW interoperability trunked channel and talked to Dispatch .
Unit 938 was testing on Monday 12/10/2018 Saturday 12/08/2018 and also on Friday 12/07/2018.

Three (3) days in a row I heard Unit 938 Range Testing on TG 144

Not sure why you ever noted this TG as Mercy Flight (as I never heard a medevac on that channel). Also, I have a Unication G5, and it has recorded all the traffic on TG 144. Not once did I hear any mention of "NYS Law." The only reference I heard on there were those units in the field testing back to the "NYS Watch Center." I think it is possible you are jumping too quick on talkgroups, and not truly listening long enough; causing you to provide misleading information.

You did the same thing when the system went live, indicating the dispatch channel for Utica Fire, when indeed, it was a different talkgroup.

Its great you want to share information, but I think you need to listen to what your hearing a little longer, and make a more accurate conclusion after you have all the pieces together.

I doesn't make sense that they would create a "NYS LAW" talkgroup when we already have "L-wide" and the NYSP also have a State Tac channel on the system.
 

sav1350

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Interesting that it might be the NYS Watch Center and those IDs. Both 8429065 and 8429066 have been seen on the Albany County system and are OFPC units from what I can tell. I have also heard 900 series units testing on the Albany County system with the "Watch Center". Seems like they are interfacing with regional system to create statewide radio coverage back the the Watch Center in Albany. Believe some one in OFPC indicated to me a while ago they were testing with units in Buffalo as well.
 
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