OPP and future encryption

[fiddlefaddle99]

Any rumors when the OPP might go encrypted ? I think it would cost 10's of millions to go encrypted. And which systems are simulcast?

 

[mciupa]

GO Transit is simulcast.

 

[slicerwizard]

Virtually all of the big P25 systems are simulcast - Toronto, Durham Region, York Region, Peel, Halton, Hamilton, Niagara Region ...

Any P25 system covering a large city / urban area is likely to be simulcast. Not sure about London though - IIRC, it's four zones with separate RF channels; don't know if there are multiple TX sites in any of the zones.

 

[fiddlefaddle99]

So would the current OPP system be simulcast ?

 

[Forts]

Any P25 system covering a large city / urban area is likely to be simulcast. Not sure about London though - IIRC, it's four zones with separate RF channels; don't know if there are multiple TX sites in any of the zones.

Correct, London is not simulcast.

So would the current OPP system be simulcast ?

No, they are not.

 

[spikestabber]

Why would OPP encrypt the traffic enforcement talkgroups? There are also a bunch of interconnected agency interop analog repeaters that tow operators and others listen in on for when needed on the highways, as well as announcing marker listings and general direction of vehicles they're looking for. As a public safety service it would be stupid of them to encrypt these.

 

[exkalibur]

Why would OPP encrypt the traffic enforcement talkgroups? There are also a bunch of interconnected agency interop analog repeaters that tow operators and others listen in on for when needed on the highways, as well as announcing marker listings and general direction of vehicles they're looking for. As a public safety service it would be stupid of them to encrypt these.

There's no good reason, from a public safety perspective, to keep anything open. When Toronto switched, people (media, tow, hobbyists etc...) raised a stink citing all sorts of concerns. But the reality is, the City gets on just fine. The Province will too. It could be argued that on the highway, being in the clear makes sense for broken down live-lane incidents, but that is where the "first available" channels come in. I suspect those aren't going away. When Fleetnet first went online, they were used religiously. Now that every tow has a digital radio, they aren't used quite as much. It's just a stroke of the policy pen to make sure all live lane incidents get simulcasted on a "first available" channel.

 

[Forts]

And how do you define a 'traffic enforcement' talkgroup? In my area the Middlesex talkgroup covers both the 401/402 and of course everything happening in the county. No different than Oxford/Elgin/Chatham/Essex/Lambton etc etc. They have highway talkgroups (1HWY01 etc) but don't like using them as guy want to know whats going on in the county and vice versa. If they are used they are often patched in the with local county group.

 

[kayn1n32008]

I think it would cost 10's of millions to go encrypted.

The entire network is being replaced, when the cost of encryption is factored in, it’s a drop in the bucket.

Most manufacturers include single key AES in the cost of the radio and turning encryption on is trivial at that point.

 

[spikestabber]

There's no good reason, from a public safety perspective, to keep anything open. When Toronto switched, people (media, tow, hobbyists etc...) raised a stink citing all sorts of concerns. But the reality is, the City gets on just fine. The Province will too. It could be argued that on the highway, being in the clear makes sense for broken down live-lane incidents, but that is where the "first available" channels come in. I suspect those aren't going away. When Fleetnet first went online, they were used religiously. Now that every tow has a digital radio, they aren't used quite as much. It's just a stroke of the policy pen to make sure all live lane incidents get simulcasted on a "first available" channel.

If you call "just fine" being as in their policing transparency going completely down the toilet, then its business as usual. Call in the *SIU* for everything that happens and the public might get to know what happened 2 months later.
I too, have lived there and had a scanner for 5 years when it was in the clear. Then 2 years after that, saw first hand just how transparent they now are.

 

[Weatherman]

Is it just the OPP going encrypted? What about MTO, MOH etc? Or is provincial government moving to an entirely new system... NXDN, DMR or whatever?

I ask because presently I am programming my radio for a mobile install and do not want to waste time and radio memory on a soon to be deprecated system.

 

[slicerwizard]

Is it just the OPP going encrypted? What about MTO, MOH etc?

That's a definite maybe.

Or is provincial government moving to an entirely new system... NXDN, DMR or whatever?

The smart money is on P25. Pretty sure the move to a new system has been mentioned numerous times here.

I ask because presently I am programming my radio for a mobile install and do not want to waste time and radio memory on a soon to be deprecated system.

Define "soon". Is it hard to delete a system once it's actually deprecated? Not seeing the problem...

 

[Forts]

Keep in mind we're talking about millions and millions of dollars to upgrade Fleetnet. Is it coming? Yes. When? Who knows.... the Ford gov't promised money to get the ball rolling about a year ago but who knows how strong those promises are. That being said, things definitely need an upgrade. Many cruisers are still running Astro Spectras that are 15+ years old with no available parts.

 

[gary123]

OPP encrypted yes. MOH encrypted yes. MTO enforcement yes. MTO snow/roads no. Expect a P25 Phase II system.

As Forts said this all is based on finances being made available. Technically there is nothing stopping just upgrading the radios on the system to accomodate encryption (add in UCMs/MACE). The older P25 radios can be transfered from OPP to MOH to further save some $$$. Finally the fleetnet system should be overhauled to improve a few coverage area issues and have all the sites tested for proper operation from the line AC to the shack to the tip of the antennas.

 

[Weatherman]

Thanks for the responses.

I should say that all the encryption that has been happening the the last number of years does not phase me, not irked by it. It is to be expected.

Once upon a time, I remember listening to York Region Police on its 800MHz trunk system, the Air-2 chopper collaborating with the K-9 unit, chasing criminals, etc... That age of scanning is more or less gone, or soon to be completely, I think.

Most scanning interest by the public is in the police and fire departments, I think mainly because of one wanting to "get in on the action", so to speak - a pursuit, and so on, a kind of entertainment "observed" from a safe distance. This was never the purpose in my approach to scanning.

Rather, my scanning philosophy is one of simple "situational awareness". Given that Public Safety is going encrypted, my radio programming will focus on the less monitored stuff. If some significant event is happening in your area, someone, everyone is going to start talking about it, and those with radios will too - a taxi driver, a security guard, the apartment maintenance channel, the school bus driver, food delivery truck and, yes, even CB (ch. 19 - truckers are great for road conditions - car accident ahead, OK, I'll exit high way beforehand to avoid). These are your "eyes on the ground". Just spread your frequency monitoring net far and wide.

Most comms, even with police, is just routine chatter. Wherever the information comes from, police or crane operator, makes no difference to me.

I've babbled long enough...

 

[georgesharpe]

Let's not forget the transit bus drivers. They are often first on a lot of scenes!

 

[gary123]

Full time encryption is becoming the norm today nothing anyone says is going to change that. Many services can easily continue to keep the public "in the loop" by releasing media reports about ongoing or major incidents. With items like Twitter, Facebook and others this is not a difficult proposition all it needs is the public to push for it.

Something to think about.

We have wandered off topic a bit. On topic until the tenders are finalized its all speculation. We all have a good idea what the services will want now we need to be patient and wait to see what they ask for and the $$$ that it will require.

 

[exkalibur]

If you call "just fine" being as in their policing transparency going completely down the toilet, then its business as usual. Call in the *SIU* for everything that happens and the public might get to know what happened 2 months later.
I too, have lived there and had a scanner for 5 years when it was in the clear. Then 2 years after that, saw first hand just how transparent they now are.

I don't mean to turn this thread into a debate over encryption or Police oversight. But, the general public doesn't think twice about such things. Those of us in "the know" through work, scanners, tow trucks, media - whatever - sure know how "bad" things are. But, to the average person? It isn't even an afterthought.

 

[gary123]

As they said in the Second World War, "loose lips sink ships". Lesson to learn keep what you hear private dont go blabbing it all over the place.

I personally think if the legal system were to hold repeat offenders to an ENFORCED escalating punishment much of the issues we see today would disappear or be handleable.

An example: driving without a licence - no accident. first time = fine, second time bigger fine and car (no matter whos it is) seized for 10-20 days. third time car destroyed or sold at police auction with limitation current owner/accused or family cant buy it (minimum price the outstanding fines and a hefty adminisatrtion fee).

 

[Muxlow]

An example: driving without a licence - no accident. first time = fine, second time bigger fine and car (no matter whos it is) seized for 10-20 days. third time car destroyed or sold at police auction with limitation current owner/accused or family cant buy it (minimum price the outstanding fines and a hefty adminisatrtion fee).

Problem with that is if someone steals a car (not yet reported stolen), gets stopped.. gets their fine and off they go, car towed. Then, they steal another car and get caught again .That stolen car gets impounded for 10-20 days? and feller does 'er a 3rd time.

I get what your saying tho im just being an ass I'd say 1st offense - a fine, 2nd - bigger fine plus DL suspension for 7 days. 3rd - DL suspension for 30 days + fine, and 4th - bye bye being able to drive.

OR 2nd time but involved in a MVC - automatic 30 day suspension and 3rd time - bye bye license