Orange County NY wants effects of wireless radiation studied

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sc8

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Orange County wants wireless radiation studied | recordonline.com

<Quote = "Times Herald Record">Orange's resolution, adopted by a 19-2 vote Oct. 6, urged the state and federal governments to "initiate epidemiological studies of populations exposed to microwave transmitters." Democratic lawmakers pushed for the resolution, which wound up having bipartisan support.</Quote>



I don't have enough of a science background to comment on the article, but the fact they called wireless radiation, microwave radiation, is not a very good sign.

But it is not suprising when the lead activist's "qualification" is a B.S. in Business Administration
 

GTR8000

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I don't have enough of a science background to comment on the article, but the fact they called wireless radiation, microwave radiation, is not a very good sign.
And yet you commented on it anyway? :roll:

Factually speaking, the term "microwave" for the purposes of RF engineering refers to radio waves above 1GHz (1000 MHz). Given the fact that the majority of WiFi devices operate at either 2.4 GHz or 5 GHz, with cellular and mobile broadband devices also operating above 1 GHz (save for iDEN (Nextel), which operates on 800/900 MHz), the term "microwave radiation" is technically correct.
 
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What a waste of money

It sounds like the people who wrote this article, the people who want the study done, and the law makers have an extremely limited knowledge of wireless communications.

There are microwave towers in OC (the one I'm thinking of specifically is in Campbell Hall, I think) so in their defense, maybe they wanted to include microwave in the study. Or (more devil's advocate here) considering upper UHF is close to microwave....benefit of the doubt??

But back to what I really think....I'm pretty confident that if you told these same people that the radiation produced by wi-fi, cell phones, and radios are comprised of the same kind of energy as visible light they would look at you like you had three heads.

Before they waste my tax dollars I think they need to talk to a physicist...heck talk to a high school student taking physics.

If I'm doing my math correctly, and I think I am...a photon (particle of light/electromagnetic radiation) of visible light is about 20 million times MORE energetic than an 800mHz particle. So I'm pretty sure unless you're hugging the transmitter of the tower, you're gonna be okay.

I must admit however, that they may want to investigate the sheer number of photons bombarding us and I don't feel like doing any more math at the moment so I can't speak to that ratio. Can anyone else?

Besides, we get bombarded by space radiation every day!
 
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In addition to the science behind it I did some research on this lady. I found a complaint she filed with the FCC and what I'm gathering from this is that she is really just upset about there being a cell tower in her neighborhood lowering her property value.

She says "An FCC vote in favor of the CTIA on Nov. 18th would be yet
another federal action that will hurt me as an individual citizen by lowering my property values."

ECFS Filing: Deborah Kopald (08-165) - 11/09/2009

granted, it's taken out of context but I feel like that is probably the root issue here
 

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Hasty Generalization

It sounds like the people who wrote this article, the people who want the study done, and the law makers have an extremely limited knowledge of wireless communications.

There are microwave towers in OC (the one I'm thinking of specifically is in Campbell Hall, I think) so in their defense, maybe they wanted to include microwave in the study. Or (more devil's advocate here) considering upper UHF is close to microwave....benefit of the doubt??

But back to what I really think....I'm pretty confident that if you told these same people that the radiation produced by wi-fi, cell phones, and radios are comprised of the same kind of energy as visible light they would look at you like you had three heads.

Before they waste my tax dollars I think they need to talk to a physicist...heck talk to a high school student taking physics.

If I'm doing my math correctly, and I think I am...a photon (particle of light/electromagnetic radiation) of visible light is about 20 million times MORE energetic than an 800mHz particle. So I'm pretty sure unless you're hugging the transmitter of the tower, you're gonna be okay.

I must admit however, that they may want to investigate the sheer number of photons bombarding us and I don't feel like doing any more math at the moment so I can't speak to that ratio. Can anyone else?

Besides, we get bombarded by space radiation every day!
I will get back to you later as I am hitting the sack and the XYL (wife) needs the quiet as the PC is in the MBR, but as a NASA-KSC retiree who worked in Microwave systems there and back as far as in the 1960's on Minuteman Missile guidance and even Shuttle Comm and tracking, I can say without hesitation - you are incorrect in your analogies. :roll:

G'nite, Mate..:wink:
 

dugan

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but as a NASA-KSC retiree who worked in Microwave systems there and back as far as in the 1960's on Minuteman Missile guidance and even Shuttle Comm and tracking, I can say without hesitation - you are incorrect in your analogies. :roll:

G'nite, Mate..:wink:
Before you go to far correcting his analogies, with your experience with radar from the 1960's, I hope you are not suggesting that the radar you worked with is in any way analogous to the power and propagation of cell towers and WiFi.

All they have to prove in Orange County, is that the radiation has lead in it and then the can ban it.

Al Dugan - friend of a friend of Sir Robert Alexander Watson-Watt (not kidding)
 

WouffHong

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Vbg

Before you go to far correcting his analogies, with your experience with radar from the 1960's, I hope you are not suggesting that the radar you worked with is in any way analogous to the power and propagation of cell towers and WiFi.

All they have to prove in Orange County, is that the radiation has lead in it and then the can ban it.

Al Dugan - friend of a friend of Sir Robert Alexander Watson-Watt (not kidding)
Of COURSE NOT! ;-)

However, the (not so) funny thing that we did at Hanscom AFB on a weekend was really stupid. I don't remember the ERP of the hi-X-Band RADAR was, but we had been tasked to check the output power and lobes, etc.. We removed the stops so it could tilt down to hit our probe and ran tests at night. As we rotated the dish, it's main beam passed over the base PX down the hill and we saw the Fluorescent lights come on followed by strange flashes. That later turned out to be the entire stock of Press 25 Flashbulbs in the photo dept! - No fire ensued, at least. The other REALLY stupid thing was that when the temperature dropped, we stood IN THE BEAM for a minute to warm up! Somehow I was still able to father a Son 5 years later! :roll: Many years later, 2 of us required Cataract surgery apparently from running high-power RadSuscepibility tests in Solid-wall "Screen rooms" .. I switched to TEMPEST testing instead. :) :twisted: :cool:
Da Wouff

P.S. Forgive me, but tired and not into a long discussion, but suffice it to say, particles/photons are not the issue. The comparison is incongruous WRT to the media mentioned, IMHO. ;)
 

dugan

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I don't want to hijack this thread so I will keep this short. My friend and former employer (died in 1997) told me that with the early radar stations he worked on they would find dead birds on the ground in front of the antennas. His name was Jack Nissenthall. You can read about some of his experience in the book Green Beach by James Leasor or search him on Google
 

radioman2001

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In keeping with the Radar/Microwave portion of this thread, I have heard from my father many times that there was a New York Telephone engineer who worked at the Empire State Building in the 50's and 60's who died of cancer. He always attributed the death to the microwave dishes that he was monitoring from inside the facility. This poor fellow died at age 49, but according to my father he look about 70. NY Tel never owned up to the possible medical implications of working so close to hi power microwave for an extended period of time.
Microwave yes, as a possible cause of cancer, but cell tower or wireless internet no. Typical NIMBY attitude, and I bet she and her whole family have cell phones. I don't think this one is going to go anywhere after Clinton passed the 1996 Comm act prohibiting local authorities from banning cell towers.
 

dugan

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In some high end neighborhoods they go to great expense to disguise cell towers; out of sight out of mind.

I am more worried about the transmitters I use in close proximity to my body, especially the ones that run 24/7. I have my wifi in the basement, not because I am paranoid of the threat it poses, but because it doesn't have to be on my desk three feet away from where I spend a lot of time.

I remember the days of the CB craze. We used to put "fireflies" (small neon bulbs) on the tips of our antennas. They would light up as we transmitted. They power is real enough. The firefly was touching the antenna, but using a field strength meter you could see the power drop off according to the inverse square law, depending on the type of antenna or antennae

My daughter has several novelty plasma balls. I don't think I am being paranoid when I suggest she not leave them on all the time. They light up fluorescent can tubes and generate a fair bit of noise. Realistically they are probably more of a fire hazard than they are an RF one.

I guess I am rambling a bit. Getting back to where we started, in my town the people that lived near the water tower complained of all sorts of ailments caused by the cell site that sits on top of it. They made such a fuss that the company that runs the site cut back the power by some factor. I don't know if locals feel any better (probably not), but I do know that across town I no longer can use my cell phone in my house. Arrg!
 
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radioman2001

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File a complaint with the cell company, the only reason I know that cell providers lower power is to get to reuse a channel some distance away. You are more likely to be exposed to more RF in front of a CRT TV than a cell site or any other transmitter, unless you are sitting on the antenna.
 

radioman2001

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I just read that woman's FCC comments (tree hugger rant). She makes what appears a strong case on the multiple times factor of signal in the US as compared to other countries, what she fails to convey is that those countries actually have more cell towers that the US. Europe, and the EU has had cell phones since the middle 70's, their infrastructure is much larger, hence less power needed for the same area coverage.
As I said before this is going nowhere, with the Comm act of 1996 unless it's overturned (not likely is a lot of BS by politicians just before election.
Also most cell systems rely on the 800 band (below microwave technically), then may switch you to the upper bands. All the BDA's I install are on 800, too much loss on the upper bands.
 
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DaveNF2G

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Another ignorant politician trying to abuse the power of office to get more votes.
 

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In keeping with the Radar/Microwave portion of this thread, I have heard from my father many times that there was a New York Telephone engineer who worked at the Empire State Building in the 50's and 60's who died of cancer. He always attributed the death to the microwave dishes that he was monitoring from inside the facility. This poor fellow died at age 49, but according to my father he look about 70. NY Tel never owned up to the possible medical implications of working so close to hi power microwave for an extended period of time.
Microwave yes, as a possible cause of cancer, but cell tower or wireless internet no. Typical NIMBY attitude, and I bet she and her whole family have cell phones. I don't think this one is going to go anywhere after Clinton passed the 1996 Comm act prohibiting local authorities from banning cell towers.
I heard similar stories about old-time radiomen who worked with high power radar. Legend has it they were able to hear the pulse repetition rate. I'm thinking it was Benjamin Blood, Om Gandhi, and Robert Radtke (1986) who theorized that the radiomen could hear the radar pulses because their cochlea would get heated during the duty cycle of the transceiver and would expand and contract at the pulse repetition rate.

When the 100 Watt Spectra mobiles came out maybe 20 years ago, they were very susceptible to RF getting back into the control head and changing states on DEK boxes and sirens especially. To prove a point, I took a fluorescent bulb and went inside the car then keyed the mic. All that RF lit up the bulb. The cops made the connection between the energy, lightbulb, and them and got their admin to authorize the antennas moved to the tops of the car. We still had to snap ferrite cores around the mic lead to stop resetting and changes (it's not cool for the siren to go off when you key the mic), but that just shows what the right amount of energy can do.

There's a lot of politics surrounding non-ionizing radiation. If you believe research funded by the wireless industry, it's harmless. The FCC has adopted absorption rates, but there's contradictory research coming from other countries that's disputed by "industry" here. Seems much more independent research is needed. That goes back full-circle to why a local government is trying to play the role of the Food and Drug Administration. What are they going to do with the data when they get it (and how qualified will they be in interpreting it)? Do they even have jurisdiction?

It reads like a sweeps week story with politicians wanting to look like they're actually doing something for the votes they want.
 

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I would imagine the Spectra's you were having problems with were low band, since all the ones I installed on both VHF and UHF never had any of those problems. All our antenna's were installed on the trunk lids, front fender (disguise ant) and some on the roof. Sirens yes had problem, especially early Federal Signal ones like the PA-15 an some early production (1970's manufactured) PA-20's, and mostly in Fire Trucks since they don't replace them as often as PD.
The US Army did RF field studies in the 40's and 50's, looking at what frequencies the human body and it's water content resonated with. Surprise!! The 170-180mhz band had the most reaction, and believe me you didn't want to watch those films as they cooked dogs and cats with antenna's located about 2 feet from their heads.
All electronic devices emits RF energy including incandecent, flourescent light bulbs, CRT TV tubes, your wireless routers, cell phones. I could go on and on, if this woman wants to live in an RF free enviroment, then she should move about 10 miles to NJ into the RF energy free zone near the old Playboy club in Vernon.
 

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I would imagine the Spectra's you were having problems with were low band, since all the ones I installed on both VHF and UHF never had any of those problems. All our antenna's were installed on the trunk lids, front fender (disguise ant) and some on the roof. Sirens yes had problem, especially early Federal Signal ones like the PA-15 an some early production (1970's manufactured) PA-20's, and mostly in Fire Trucks since they don't replace them as often as PD.
The US Army did RF field studies in the 40's and 50's, looking at what frequencies the human body and it's water content resonated with. Surprise!! The 170-180mhz band had the most reaction, and believe me you didn't want to watch those films as they cooked dogs and cats with antenna's located about 2 feet from their heads.
All electronic devices emits RF energy including incandecent, flourescent light bulbs, CRT TV tubes, your wireless routers, cell phones. I could go on and on, if this woman wants to live in an RF free enviroment, then she should move about 10 miles to NJ into the RF energy free zone near the old Playboy club in Vernon.
No, those were T83 high band Spectras. I've never seen a low band Spectra, although I think there were mid-band ones made for the international market. This issue was a problem on the A9 head, especially with a DEK box. We didn't know it at the time, but the RF would get back into the control head through the mic cord and mess with the data bus that changed states. Under the right conditions, the officer would key the radio and the siren DEK would randomly select an active state, like yelp. We messed with bypass caps, but ultimately "fixed" things with a ferrite core snapped onto the bottom of the mic cord. I'm not sure if the product group ran with the idea or did something else for suppression.

Many years ago I had a deputy police chief who had a disguised radio in his police package Chevrolet Caprice (as if you couldn't tell it was a cop car - even with the STICO antenna in the cowl). He complained about how keying his mic screwed up the "local stereo station." Problem solved (and many thanks received from the troops) by turning the output down to about 2 Watts.

Funny how decades of known legacy use are attacked by relative newcomers. The Armstrong Tower in Alpine's a great example. The other irony is that most of these people couldn't live if they weren't "plugged in" to the Internet and their cellphone, but it's not magic. It's all got to come from somewhere. When I was working in the midwest putting up tornado sirens, we were placing one in a schoolyard. After it was framed out on the pole waiting for the crew to put it up, one nutty woman told her kids to jump up and down on the speaker array, putting big cracks into the carbon composite material and ruining it. She came out the day we noticed the damage and was up in arms about how we were going to radiate her children. She thought it was a cellular antenna. It was a Whelen WPS2800 siren. I wanted to move it to an area that actually wanted one of those (it took me years to justify putting one in my own neighborhood... and then I vested out and moved). Looking at my former employer (a county, similar to Orange), it would have been ridiculous for them to claim the authority to enforce electromagnetic energy levels, either actively or through ordinance. It would have been like the guy driving up and down the subdivisions to see who hasn't mowed their lawn to the right height.

Since you mentioned it, here's an interesting story about the Teleport at Vernon Valley (look under SIGINT): Section 3 - ADVERSARY FOREIGN INTELLIGENCE OPERATIONS - Operations Security - INTELLIGENCE THREAT HANDBOOK</h3></td> Keep your eyes open for Vlad and Dimitri's Plumbing vans. :) I've never been there specifically, but have been to Traction Park, not too far away.
 

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I am very familiar with the Armstrong/Alpine Tower. I have know the owners for over 35 years, I have had equipment up there for over 30 years. I saw what happened when the locals tried to actually have it taken down back in the 80's. It killed the owner from the stress, but in the long run the locals payed dearly, to the tune of nearly 1 million dollars in legal fees the tower company had expended. The tower is now a National Landmark and protected also by Homeland Security, due to all the Fed stuff up there. The rooms are for the most part are vacant now compared to the 80's, but now the TV stations help support it.
 

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It killed the owner from the stress...
Yep, Charlie was a fantastic guy, a legend in radio, and a true historic preservationist. He went through great lengths to keep that building and the machine shop true to the way Armstrong made it. Geez, I'm thinking you and I have to know each other in real life.
 
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