P L tones
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I have seen codeplugs from the C&NW(now UPRR) PBX system in Iowa. No PL's on TX. Everything was controlled with DTMF.
Just my added .02
Tim
Just my added .02
Tim
CN has a few repeaters in a few places on the former IC former ICG lines. Only a couple of them ran PL on both ends (RX/TX), and those were for Special Operations use locally. That included the (Suite and Tie) Executive CH, and Security Agents (used to be called Yard Dogs for a while but I have not heard that used in forever). Amtrak also has a few repeaters in use at a few facilities, such as the Beech Grove repair depot. The VHF Rail one is for Amtrak Police around and in the facility, and an UHF one that repeats most of Amtraks line ops from Chicago, and New Orleans I believe also. And here in IN CSX has DTMF tones as an curtesy (hello/goodbye) on the main CHs, and to pop the PBXs. KCS also had DTMF for a few purposes down South but I cant recall if they still have any repeaters online or not.
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Darkstar350
Member
Being that railroads generally use around the same frequencies and running high power - squelch tones would actually be in railroads best interest
Its going to be quite some time before the majority of railroads are full Nexedge
The Long island railroad for example has a setup where the bases/towers transmit with no tone but the mobiles do use a tone
I suppose that somehow decreases interference and whatnot
Also from what ive heard despite using no tone the bases can not hear another base unless they press a button or something that would allow them to hear the other dispatch
I havent seen tones listed for Amtrak anywhere but im in NY and 103.5 PL is the only tone i have got on Amtrak freqs (161.01 and 160.920)
I suppose it may just be a northeast thing...
Its going to be quite some time before the majority of railroads are full Nexedge
The Long island railroad for example has a setup where the bases/towers transmit with no tone but the mobiles do use a tone
I suppose that somehow decreases interference and whatnot
Also from what ive heard despite using no tone the bases can not hear another base unless they press a button or something that would allow them to hear the other dispatch
I havent seen tones listed for Amtrak anywhere but im in NY and 103.5 PL is the only tone i have got on Amtrak freqs (161.01 and 160.920)
I suppose it may just be a northeast thing...
ecps92
Member
Or the lack of Reporting Tones.
I've noticed similar for those who monitor USFS, BIA, NPS etc, with the lack of posting/sharing PL/DPL info
I've noticed similar for those who monitor USFS, BIA, NPS etc, with the lack of posting/sharing PL/DPL info
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Incorrect. AAR interchange rules state that an AAR radio must be used for compatibility. Using PL tones would defeat the purpose. With the exception of short lines and some regionals locomotives are pooled power and can end up anywhere.
Railroad radios are NOT high power (locomotive). They are 45watts prior to going into an inefficient antenna.
Nxdn is not mandated nor taking hold anytime soon. Major railroads have held off due to many infrastructure issues and the AVTEC systems and access commonly used.
This issue has been beaten to death often.
BLM etc is a whole different story.
Railroad radios are NOT high power (locomotive). They are 45watts prior to going into an inefficient antenna.
Nxdn is not mandated nor taking hold anytime soon. Major railroads have held off due to many infrastructure issues and the AVTEC systems and access commonly used.
This issue has been beaten to death often.
BLM etc is a whole different story.
You can have "your channel" and then the regular AAR band in both Motorola RR Spectra's and the new Kenwood/Icom radios. So you can have a PL'd channel and the regular CSQ AAR Channels.
I would say 45 watts is "high power" to the average person. There are those of us that are used to the Spectra/XTL series radios at 110 watts.
Since when is NXDN not taking hold anytime soon? There are quite a few areas here in California that are NXDN and more transitioning in the next few months.
Regards,
-Frank C.
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45/50 watt radios have always been known as mid-power radios.
The Motorola Railroad Spectra was the first of the AAR clean cab radios that allowed specific programming of "home channels", which can include PL programming and was only programmable via RSS.
NXDN, as road channels on the class 1's is not happening anytime soon. It has made appearances in yards and short lines (as well as DMR).
Thenbackhaul infrastuture as well as road infrastructure in not there as well as means to control switches and other appliances via NXDN.
The Motorola Railroad Spectra was the first of the AAR clean cab radios that allowed specific programming of "home channels", which can include PL programming and was only programmable via RSS.
NXDN, as road channels on the class 1's is not happening anytime soon. It has made appearances in yards and short lines (as well as DMR).
Thenbackhaul infrastuture as well as road infrastructure in not there as well as means to control switches and other appliances via NXDN.
Darkstar350
Member
45 watts is that some type of regulation for railroad radios? Or just average?
Is it written in stone that railroads can not use squelch tones or do they just need to have the capability to Tx in CSQ?
I had no idea that there were guidelines specific to railroad radios
If this is the case then there should be a interop channel plan for railroads much like for public safety...
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There already is - the 97 AAR channels.
The issue that you have, is your location. The LIRR, MTA etc are all "captive" railroads. They do not interchange equipment or operations in the traditional sense - thus they can essentially do what they want as they do not have to worry about any other railroad (keeping it simple).
Freight on the other hand, can trade off engines to any other railroad and/or operate on trackage rights on another railroad. With the limited exception of cab signaled subdivisions, any railroads engine can lead another railroads train (i.e. UP engine as the leader on a CSX train).
The UP radio must be able to communicate on CSX channels, and all operate on the standard 97 channel plan. If CSX used PL tones, then CSX would need to swap in one of their radios (not going to happen) or place a CSX leader on (again, not going to happen unless cabs are needed) as it take time to re air test the train, arm/disarm EOT's or rearrange DPU consists.
So, using the AAR radio, you simply enter the radio channel used.
Aside from major railroad interchanges/cities, interference and overlap isn't as bad as railfans perceive it to be. You have 97 standard channels at 15k spacing to choose from.
With the exception of Riton and the GE branded radios, Neterma/JEM radios are all Kenwood or ICOM based mobile radios with the AAR interface. The Motorola radios were the same way.
Riton built theirs from the ground up (and I think they are the closest to Motorola quaility). I don't recall who OEM's GE branded radios.
Aside from that, commuter railroads, short lines and even some regionals can use whatever they want as their equipment isn't typically handed off to other railroads. I've seen CDM1250's used with the channels needed for their purposes.
All the major railroads use the clean cabs (reguardless of manufacturer) as all the cabling and power is a standard format and location. Basically plug and play in 2minutes.
NXDN was being pushed as the digital standard. However what was forgotten was that's backend equipment needed to be replaced, 10's of 1000's of locomotive radios, vehicle radios, handhelds, MOW equipment - how to digitally interface wayside equipment (and the list goes on) - which hasn't been figured out yet.
NS still runs a bunch of Motorola Railroad Astro Spectras and only being replaced as they fail beyond repair.
BNSF has been playing with NXDN in some of its yard, but generally (not always) confined to mechincal forces, and the like. It's kind of hard to switch or have a train work a yard when the incoming conductor doesn't have a NXDN radio.
Many of the early Nexterma radios and some JEMs are NXDN calible but not enabled (you can try to select a NXDN channel but will error out).
You also have to understand the 99% of railroad communications are simplex. In a metropolitan area, mountains or even on the open plains, a conductor walking a 8500+ft train isn't communicating well with the engineer. Often other trains ornthe dispatchers will have to relay information as the radio just doesn't reach. Although error correction is employed in All the digital formats, if the signal doesn't reach, it doesn't reach. Railroaders have very little toerlance for the digital sound as well as injected digital garbage that public safety is putting up with.
So far based on our testing, it's not going to be accepted by the rank and file as well as the safety committees for road operations.
The issue that you have, is your location. The LIRR, MTA etc are all "captive" railroads. They do not interchange equipment or operations in the traditional sense - thus they can essentially do what they want as they do not have to worry about any other railroad (keeping it simple).
Freight on the other hand, can trade off engines to any other railroad and/or operate on trackage rights on another railroad. With the limited exception of cab signaled subdivisions, any railroads engine can lead another railroads train (i.e. UP engine as the leader on a CSX train).
The UP radio must be able to communicate on CSX channels, and all operate on the standard 97 channel plan. If CSX used PL tones, then CSX would need to swap in one of their radios (not going to happen) or place a CSX leader on (again, not going to happen unless cabs are needed) as it take time to re air test the train, arm/disarm EOT's or rearrange DPU consists.
So, using the AAR radio, you simply enter the radio channel used.
Aside from major railroad interchanges/cities, interference and overlap isn't as bad as railfans perceive it to be. You have 97 standard channels at 15k spacing to choose from.
With the exception of Riton and the GE branded radios, Neterma/JEM radios are all Kenwood or ICOM based mobile radios with the AAR interface. The Motorola radios were the same way.
Riton built theirs from the ground up (and I think they are the closest to Motorola quaility). I don't recall who OEM's GE branded radios.
Aside from that, commuter railroads, short lines and even some regionals can use whatever they want as their equipment isn't typically handed off to other railroads. I've seen CDM1250's used with the channels needed for their purposes.
All the major railroads use the clean cabs (reguardless of manufacturer) as all the cabling and power is a standard format and location. Basically plug and play in 2minutes.
NXDN was being pushed as the digital standard. However what was forgotten was that's backend equipment needed to be replaced, 10's of 1000's of locomotive radios, vehicle radios, handhelds, MOW equipment - how to digitally interface wayside equipment (and the list goes on) - which hasn't been figured out yet.
NS still runs a bunch of Motorola Railroad Astro Spectras and only being replaced as they fail beyond repair.
BNSF has been playing with NXDN in some of its yard, but generally (not always) confined to mechincal forces, and the like. It's kind of hard to switch or have a train work a yard when the incoming conductor doesn't have a NXDN radio.
Many of the early Nexterma radios and some JEMs are NXDN calible but not enabled (you can try to select a NXDN channel but will error out).
You also have to understand the 99% of railroad communications are simplex. In a metropolitan area, mountains or even on the open plains, a conductor walking a 8500+ft train isn't communicating well with the engineer. Often other trains ornthe dispatchers will have to relay information as the radio just doesn't reach. Although error correction is employed in All the digital formats, if the signal doesn't reach, it doesn't reach. Railroaders have very little toerlance for the digital sound as well as injected digital garbage that public safety is putting up with.
So far based on our testing, it's not going to be accepted by the rank and file as well as the safety committees for road operations.
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Also forgot, any railroad radio upgrades have generally been placed on the back burner. Most railroads are burning their money into PTC equipment that is reaching into the billions (with a b) to get ahead of the federal mandate (which most are failing at).
UP: Progress Continues on Union Pacific's Positive Train Control Implementation
UP: Progress Continues on Union Pacific's Positive Train Control Implementation
When the tech finally catches up around 2020 the narrowband aar freqs and DMR and nxdn will start rolling out a lot more. All the licenses are almost redone for nxdn for the big rail corps and most of the secondary. ..
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Well not everyone is privy to 45/50 watt radios being mid-power. Most hams know those as High Power as they never get the 75 watt rigs, or better!
Yes I know that well. I have multiple Motorola's and TWO clean cabs myself. Fantastic radios all the way around. I only have Kenwood for NXDN and Low Band because the Maratrac won't do alpha-numeric displays.
Control of switches and "other appliances" will not be done via NXDN, but via the PTC and 8/900 Links already in place. There is no changing of that. DMR isn't the "go-to" for the railroads, the few that are doing that are mostly in the "operations" department, and similar, on short lines.
The backhaul and road infrastructure is being replaced at their major "repair" dates with new NXDN gear, so it's just a flip of a switch. MOST of the BNSF in California has been switched over to NXDN, and UP has the Roseville Division almost completed.
Regards,
-Frank C.
Darkstar350
Member
Oh ok so basically any railroad can use any designated railroad frequency whether or not they have a license for the exact freq?
That would clear things up
Thanks
As far as the MTA its true they generally dont interchange with other railroads with the exception of "New york Atlantic" which is the freight carrier on the line but they have their own frequencies however im pretty sure they can radio the LIRR towers if need be
Getting closer to the city and elsewhere they may have to deal with Amtrak and i know they have been known to share at least one channel which is actually the Amtrak freq that i mentioned(160.920)
The LIRR does use PL tones but being that it is a simplex system as was mentioned its all relevant to your location otherwise you may not hear all of the communications
I can pick up the railroad fairly well and on busy days with a outdoor antenna in particular it can be a mess of trains stepping on each other and whatnot
I think the towers have it so that they will only receive the specific tone unless the dispatcher switches something on the radio
Its probobly something similar to the "monitor" button on a GMRS radio...
When I first started in the public safety business 110 watt radios were the standard in vehicles. We had some low power radios, these were usually around 50 watts. Nowadays the standard mobile radios for VHF are about 50 watts.
AFAIK though railroad locomotive radios have been 45 watts as a standard for decades.
Low medium high. All depends on the service and type. Ps radios high is 100 to 110 Watts. Rail is 45 to 50. Ht high is 5 lol
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I think what PJH was trying to say was that PL tones are almost never used for or by any type of system where interchange may occur. Since any locomotive could be used almost anywhere there has to be standardization. Channel standardization is easy, everyone has the same 97 channels and the radios are all functionally identical and swappable.
If you add PL tones to the mix this confuses issues and makes the ability to easily communicate a miserable mess. PL tones are fine for local and intra-company operations like yard repeaters, PBXs, defect detector transmissions but you will never see them required for road operations unless the road is isolated.
The few times you see PL tones on road channels is because of an error in programming or for TX only. For example, the CSS&SB uses PL on a road channel so their office can hear just their operations and ignore those of the other users on the channel. The radios on the locomotives and dispatchers etc. are all CSQ receive.
Railroads depend on interoperability and the standardized radios and channel plan are a huge part of it. PL Tone requirements degrade that and are never used unless it is an isolated situation.
If you add PL tones to the mix this confuses issues and makes the ability to easily communicate a miserable mess. PL tones are fine for local and intra-company operations like yard repeaters, PBXs, defect detector transmissions but you will never see them required for road operations unless the road is isolated.
The few times you see PL tones on road channels is because of an error in programming or for TX only. For example, the CSS&SB uses PL on a road channel so their office can hear just their operations and ignore those of the other users on the channel. The radios on the locomotives and dispatchers etc. are all CSQ receive.
Railroads depend on interoperability and the standardized radios and channel plan are a huge part of it. PL Tone requirements degrade that and are never used unless it is an isolated situation.
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radioman2001
Member
quote"The Long island railroad for example has a setup where the bases/towers transmit with no tone but the mobiles do use a tone I suppose that somehow decreases interference and whatnot.
Depends on the system, generally the rule is if you have other RR's that operate on you territory you use CS. Otherwise if you are a closed trackage you can run anything you want. I know a couple of shortlines and scenic ones that run Mototrbo.
PL can be used for differentiating between 2 spurs or stubs as I believe LIRR does. For the most part LIRR is closed trackage with the only other RR running on it being Amtrak.
With all the new loco radio's having far more than the 97 AAR channel capability there is no reason why not to run a PL. Preferably a nationwide one to eliminate some of the interference. The Quest Rail 12R3D have 400 alphanumerical displayed channels, and our newer Railcom radios have a lot more than that.
Quote" Many of the early Nexterma radios and some JEMs are NXDN calible but not enabled (you can try to select a NXDN channel but will error out).
The older Kenwood mobile radios (GE/Trans 12RII ) radios did NOT come with NXND and have to be either upgraded or have been ordered with the option. Probably the reason you can't select it on the erroring radio. All the newer Kenwoods come standard with the NXDN in them, it's just a matter of programming the radio correctly for it.
Quote"Since when is NXDN not taking hold anytime soon? There are quite a few areas here in California that are NXDN and more transitioning in the next few months.
For RTC, I doubt that. The Class I's said to the AAR no way are you going to force into NXDN anytime soon, as we just spent XXXX dollars to go narrow band. My agency isn't going to replace again our 110 or so base stations and 6000+ radios for NXDN. We MAY phase it in over the next 20 years or so.
Our radio power level's were actually lowered this last reprogramming go around.When your bases are less than 15 miles apart you don't need a lot of power, and our new ERP is about 10 watts and we still can be heard 20 miles away. Whats the saying about only using enough power to cover where you want to cover.
When I started in radio there were some press agencies running 250 watt GE Mastr mobiles.
Quote"Freight on the other hand, can trade off engines to any other railroad and/or operate on trackage rights on another railroad.
To take that 1 step further, any Loco operator who is not qualified for a territory will be replaced with a local operator who has the right radio for that territory. We had that situation when we ran from New Haven CT to the Giants Stadium in Meadowlands NJ for football season. I actually had to build a box radio with 20 watts on our frequencies for the NJT operator to use. It took 3 conductors and engineers to make the trip. Switching off as each left or entered their territory.
Quote"Riton built theirs from the ground up (and I think they are the closest to Motorola quaility). I don't recall who OEM's GE branded radios.
Ritron's a piece of junk regardless of their advertising, and they use a Kenwood mobile as does Quest Rail, there is no GE or GE/Transportation anymore. Railcom uses a Mot Mototrbo mobile, and all use custom firmware to remote control the radio even though it's in the same box to their display interface.
Depends on the system, generally the rule is if you have other RR's that operate on you territory you use CS. Otherwise if you are a closed trackage you can run anything you want. I know a couple of shortlines and scenic ones that run Mototrbo.
PL can be used for differentiating between 2 spurs or stubs as I believe LIRR does. For the most part LIRR is closed trackage with the only other RR running on it being Amtrak.
With all the new loco radio's having far more than the 97 AAR channel capability there is no reason why not to run a PL. Preferably a nationwide one to eliminate some of the interference. The Quest Rail 12R3D have 400 alphanumerical displayed channels, and our newer Railcom radios have a lot more than that.
Quote" Many of the early Nexterma radios and some JEMs are NXDN calible but not enabled (you can try to select a NXDN channel but will error out).
The older Kenwood mobile radios (GE/Trans 12RII ) radios did NOT come with NXND and have to be either upgraded or have been ordered with the option. Probably the reason you can't select it on the erroring radio. All the newer Kenwoods come standard with the NXDN in them, it's just a matter of programming the radio correctly for it.
Quote"Since when is NXDN not taking hold anytime soon? There are quite a few areas here in California that are NXDN and more transitioning in the next few months.
For RTC, I doubt that. The Class I's said to the AAR no way are you going to force into NXDN anytime soon, as we just spent XXXX dollars to go narrow band. My agency isn't going to replace again our 110 or so base stations and 6000+ radios for NXDN. We MAY phase it in over the next 20 years or so.
Our radio power level's were actually lowered this last reprogramming go around.When your bases are less than 15 miles apart you don't need a lot of power, and our new ERP is about 10 watts and we still can be heard 20 miles away. Whats the saying about only using enough power to cover where you want to cover.
When I started in radio there were some press agencies running 250 watt GE Mastr mobiles.
Quote"Freight on the other hand, can trade off engines to any other railroad and/or operate on trackage rights on another railroad.
To take that 1 step further, any Loco operator who is not qualified for a territory will be replaced with a local operator who has the right radio for that territory. We had that situation when we ran from New Haven CT to the Giants Stadium in Meadowlands NJ for football season. I actually had to build a box radio with 20 watts on our frequencies for the NJT operator to use. It took 3 conductors and engineers to make the trip. Switching off as each left or entered their territory.
Quote"Riton built theirs from the ground up (and I think they are the closest to Motorola quaility). I don't recall who OEM's GE branded radios.
Ritron's a piece of junk regardless of their advertising, and they use a Kenwood mobile as does Quest Rail, there is no GE or GE/Transportation anymore. Railcom uses a Mot Mototrbo mobile, and all use custom firmware to remote control the radio even though it's in the same box to their display interface.
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For Frank-
Ham radios and commercial radios are two different things.
PTC does not control nor operate switches.
Please cite references on NXDN on BNSF and UP - as my guys who are in telecom there haven't heard of this nor any special instructions have been amended or issued. According to Rick there is still a backlog of radio orders to fill im with MOW and the special BNSF firmware for the newer Kenwood radios.
Ham radios and commercial radios are two different things.
PTC does not control nor operate switches.
Please cite references on NXDN on BNSF and UP - as my guys who are in telecom there haven't heard of this nor any special instructions have been amended or issued. According to Rick there is still a backlog of radio orders to fill im with MOW and the special BNSF firmware for the newer Kenwood radios.
I think the infrastructure is being upgraded to accommodate NXDN but is still operating in FM mode.
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