P25 TDMA Conventional

[Echo4Thirty]

"There are other vendors that will gladly give their customers DMR and P25"

Some sales of those radios from other vendors are a necessary evil to avoid anti-trust. Just how many of the big state-wide systems are NOT Motorola?

There are over 38,000 user radios on the Iowa system alone. How many of those do you think are Motorola? 38,000?

While most of the systems might be Motorola, I can tell you that VERY few of them have Motorola only subscribers. TxWarn is 1/3rd of texas and uses RM to manage moto subs, but they also allow (and have on the network) literally every TIA-102 Cap Compliant radio on the market. They have trained their programmers to not be single brand minded, but what the best solution for the individual agency is. This rings true with all other major regionals in Texas as well.

Ohio, Louisiana, West Virginia, Arkansas and many other state systems also have many other brands in daily usage. Having RM does not vendor lock the subscribers to Motorola unless the preprogramming authority is ran by a bunch of homers.

I am trying to think of a major large system I visited when I was with EFJ that were only Motorola subscribers and really cant think of any. Sure there are small city systems that might be, but I have been to most of the big boys and even before I got there, they had Harris, Tait and others and were very interested in the VP series.

I also was asked about DMR because the school systems used DMR and they hated carrying two radios when they worked in the schools.

If the "off brand" radio has its SDOCs and somehow isnt compliant, does that mean the system isnt P25 compliant?

 

[clbsquared]

While most of the systems might be Motorola, I can tell you that VERY few of them have Motorola only subscribers. TxWarn is 1/3rd of texas and uses RM to manage moto subs, but they also allow (and have on the network) literally every TIA-102 Cap Compliant radio on the market. They have trained their programmers to not be single brand minded, but what the best solution for the individual agency is. This rings true with all other major regionals in Texas as well.

Ohio, Louisiana, West Virginia, Arkansas and many other state systems also have many other brands in daily usage. Having RM does not vendor lock the subscribers to Motorola unless the preprogramming authority is ran by a bunch of homers.

I am trying to think of a major large system I visited when I was with EFJ that were only Motorola subscribers and really cant think of any. Sure there are small city systems that might be, but I have been to most of the big boys and even before I got there, they had Harris, Tait and others and were very interested in the VP series.

I also was asked about DMR because the school systems used DMR and they hated carrying two radios when they worked in the schools.

If the "off brand" radio has its SDOCs and somehow isnt compliant, does that mean the system isnt P25 compliant?

Virginia statewide STARS is all Motorola.

 

[MTS2000des]

They will be pushed to LTE/WiFi/IP Radio long before any P25 TDMA Conventional comes into existence. We are seeing this across the country. NYPD is migrating to the APX NEXT that already has those IP based technologies built in and its not a big deal to stand up IP talk paths via critical connect. There is an EMS agency in Houston that from day 1 lit up on IP radio with Harris subs and have been very pleased with it.

Which also locks one into a vendor's particular flavor of P25 over broadband. L3Harris and MSI subscribers cannot run each other's broadband application (BeOn/Smart Connect) and with no standardization like there is for CAI, this is why vendor C with their wonderful all band multi-protocol portable is a day late, dollar short to the party.

The writing is on the wall with broadband integration into LMR. It just makes sense, not to replace, but augment. From a cost savings, I'd much rather have my P25 subscribers on LTE/enterprise wi-fi than dozens of noise making, spectrum polluting BDA's that can cost hundreds of thousands to implement and maintain in commercial structures as are now being required by IFC/NFPA. These road apples are a headache.

TDMA on conventional really is not a priority. I'd like standardization of broadband integration but that is just me.

 

[Echo4Thirty]

Virginia statewide STARS is all Motorola.

So if an agency wishes to purchase and utilize a Harris, EFJ, Tait or any other CAP compliant radio on the network, they would be turned away and told to contact Motorola sales?

 

[Echo4Thirty]

Which also locks one into a vendor's particular flavor of P25 over broadband. L3Harris and MSI subscribers cannot run each other's broadband application (BeOn/Smart Connect) and with no standardization like there is for CAI, this is why vendor C with their wonderful all band multi-protocol portable is a day late, dollar short to the party.

The writing is on the wall with broadband integration into LMR. It just makes sense, not to replace, but augment. From a cost savings, I'd much rather have my P25 subscribers on LTE/enterprise wi-fi than dozens of noise making, spectrum polluting BDA's that can cost hundreds of thousands to implement and maintain in commercial structures as are now being required by IFC/NFPA. These road apples are a headache.

TDMA on conventional really is not a priority. I'd like standardization of broadband integration but that is just me.

This I agree with, the EMS agency that is on BeOn with the Harris core had to ISSI with the Motorola system for the subs on CriticalConnect to communicate. Its an expensive solution, but one I dont see Harris nor Motorola willing to do anything about. Both got to sell ISSI to their respective systems just to gateway IP voice talkgroups back and forth between Moto and Harris subs. Since brands C,D and E also cant play in the LTE/IP radio space, it further limits their share regardless of any super cool LMR features.

APCO certainly needs to address this and create a standard VOIP methodology. Its back to the days of P16 vendor incompatibility. Imagine if AT&T or Verizon told you that they were Samsung phones only and Apple or any other phone wouldnt work? Why do we put up with it in the LMR world where the devices are much more expensive? Could it be that the people buying such are not using their own money but taxpayer funds?

 

[clbsquared]

So if an agency wishes to purchase and utilize a Harris, EFJ, Tait or any other CAP compliant radio on the network, they would be turned away and told to contact Motorola sales?

Pretty much. It’s a statewide system. Only state agencies use it. With the exception of one county with three talkgroups. There are also multi county systems that are only allowed to use Motorola. One is in the Hampton Roads area and encompasses about eight counties / cities.

 

[xmo]

These large systems represent huge investment of taxpayer funds. One way to justify that investment is to support agencies beyond public safety. For example: streets & roads departments, transit authority, animal control, permits & inspections, municipal utilities, school busses, building & grounds depts, etc.

Lots of opportunities for multiple vendor P25 compliant radios.

 

[Echo4Thirty]

These large systems represent huge investment of taxpayer funds. One way to justify that investment is to support agencies beyond public safety. For example: streets & roads departments, transit authority, animal control, permits & inspections, municipal utilities, school busses, building & grounds depts, etc.

Lots of opportunities for multiple vendor P25 compliant radios.

Agreed, not all agencies have Motorola Money so to speak. The other thing I learned was when Motorola and Harris knew that they had a vendor lock on subscribers, they had no incentive to be competitive. Once the network approved brands C,D and E because they had their SDOCS and were CAP compliant, magically the incumbents prices dropped. This happened LITERALLY every time I got an EFJ approved and an agency bought the radios. It was so nuts that we would get calls from system owners of both small and large systems saying "we dont have any intention to buy non Brand A/B radios, but we also know from talking to other system managers that they got a MUCH better price once you guys were approved and being tested on the network".

I dont knock brand A and B radios, I think they are quality devices. What I am for is being good stewards of taxpayer money regardless of the brand sticker on the front. That said, if brand K's radio is horrible for whatever reason, so be it. But there are some really good choices besides brand A and B in the marketplace.

Sometimes its just easier to go with the same brand radios as the system you bought, This is not just true of Harris/Motorola. But is that really the best path for the agency or the people footing the bill for the radios especially that radios can be over $10k each now? The entire point of P25 was to create standards to get away from the vendor lock aspect of P16.

 

[kayn1n32008]

"There are other vendors that will gladly give their customers DMR and P25"

Some sales of those radios from other vendors are a necessary evil to avoid anti-trust. Just how many of the big state-wide systems are NOT Motorola?

There are over 38,000 user radios on the Iowa system alone. How many of those do you think are Motorola? 38,000?

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

 

[speedway_navigator]

One of the "other" DMR companies had a single channel repeater system for a while. 2 slot, where one slot was the input, other slot was the output. Didn't seem to catch on….

I first saw that at an APCO show in Anaheim about 10 years ago, can't remember the company, was an offshore one but not Hytera. They said the Thai military was using it for SAR missions in the jungle since simplex was only good for a few hundred yards. They put a portable in a helicopter for the repeater site, worked great..

 

[mmckenna]

I first saw that at an APCO show in Anaheim about 10 years ago, can't remember the company, was an offshore one but not Hytera. They said the Thai military was using it for SAR missions in the jungle since simplex was only good for a few hundred yards. They put a portable in a helicopter for the repeater site, worked great..

Yeah, I wish I could remember the company. They had a backpack version of the repeater on display.