Planned Rollout of 5G Technology

[chrismol1]

Love it! this is the technical discussions I like on here lets dig into it! Love the contributors all walks of life! Yup that's why there doing ILS critical areas for 5G around specific airports. 5G phones causing inteference? Will the tin can keep the signals inside? I guess we'll get that data at some point

 

[KC3ECJ]

It will be interesting to see the bureaucratic machinations in play when a radar altimeter is jammed by a 5g signal (radar altimeters don't have the steepest filter skirts apparently) and causes a hard landing and explosive runway excursion with 350 body bags taken from the wreckage. The legal departments of the FAA, cell companies, airlines, avionics manufacturers probably have their actuarial risk assessors busy figuring out the "dollars versus bodies" equations to guide them in the directions of fixing the issue or just letting the situation ride and pay out the death lawsuits.

This is a fascinating study of how big money lobbying combined with hapless corporate and government management talents, can get their panties in a bind. If the cost of fixing it is more than the cost of paying for the charred and dismembered bodies, then we will just get a crash someday that will be blamed on 5g signals that exist inside the filter skirts of the radar altimeter involved in the crash. That's when they will fix the problem with tighter altimeter filters, after the funerals, since cell lobbying is probably more powerful than aviation lobbying. It's a time-tested way of making our world safer.

Not evey plane has a radar altimeter.
If these pilots can't fly without one, why are they pilots?

 

[andy51edge]

Not evey plane has a radar altimeter.
If these pilots can't fly without one, why are they pilots?

It's not that simple. Pilots rely heavily on it yes, but so do aircraft systems. For example on my aircraft the spoilers that deploy on landing (called ground lift dumping in the CRJ jargon) rely heavily on the RAD ALT to prevent incorrect deployment in flight. If I were to hypothetically open both RAD ALT circuit breakers on the ground, I would get a bunch of fault messages.

On the pilot side, when flying approaches and runway visibility is less than 1800 feet then we have to use "Category II" operation which uses the RAD ALT for altitude reference instead of the barometric altimeter.

 

[prcguy]

Lots of pilots are not instrument qualified, so even if they had altimeter radar and other instruments they would have to go somewhere else to land if visibility is low. The immediate fix for the 5G problem will either be upgrading the aircraft altimeter system or installing a filter. Both of those options are not a quick and easy fix, you can't just throw a filter in and it has to be engineered electrically and mechanically into the aircraft.

Not evey plane has a radar altimeter.
If these pilots can't fly without one, why are they pilots?

 

[n6hgg]

If you're not familiar with the Federal Regulations, it's not a bad idea to look at this video that explains some of the technicalities of what these people have gotten themselves into. When stuff like this comes up, the display of ignorance is stunning.

 

[MUTNAV]

I don't get the prohibition on using HUDs to touchdown at the 5G airports. I don't know how the new airplanes work, but on old F-16A models, using the HUD to touchdown was really the best way to do an approach.

Thanks
Joel

 

[KC3ECJ]

Has anybody even tested in a lab to see if there is interference that has meaningful effect,?

Lots of pilots are not instrument qualified, so even if they had altimeter radar and other instruments they would have to go somewhere else to land if visibility is low. The immediate fix for the 5G problem will either be upgrading the aircraft altimeter system or installing a filter. Both of those options are not a quick and easy fix, you can't just throw a filter in and it has to be engineered electrically and mechanically into the aircraft.

Shouldn't it's accuracy be checked against a barometric altimeter and GPS altimeter?

It just seems odd that there's a stop on this right before these carriers are to put on these particular 5G networks, when they could have said something earlier.

I mean, did the FAA even bother to do some testing to support the claim that it interferes beforehand?

 

[prcguy]

An aircraft altimeter radar has no bearing on actual altitude above sea level, its a radar pointed downward to measure the distance off the ground. They are calibrated at some point for distance but not altitude above sea level.

The FAA, aircraft mfrs and airlines have been bringing up questions about 5G affecting altimeter radars for several years. Blessing a fix is also not easy either, in the past with cell phones on aircraft, tests were run to prove or disprove a cell phone would have any effect on aircraft electronics. After the test revealed there were no problems that aircraft could be certified for that flight with the particular phone used and that's about it.

There are many variables and testing would be very extensive before they could certify that an aircraft is ok with 5G at any point in its flight at any airport anywhere. Imagine the testing was done in a hurry and given the ok. Then a couple of airlines full of people crash and its later attributed to 5G affecting the altimeter radar. Who would be responsible? Who is willing to take that risk when certifying there is no problem? There is no quick answer or quick fix.

Has anybody even tested in a lab to see if there is interference that has meaningful effect,?


Shouldn't it's accuracy be checked against a barometric altimeter and GPS altimeter?

It just seems odd that there's a stop on this right before these carriers are to put on these particular 5G networks, when they could have said something earlier.

I mean, did the FAA even bother to do some testing to support the claim that it interferes beforehand?

 

[RaleighGuy]

Federal Communications Commission Chairwoman Jessica Rosenworcel issued the following statement after the new agreement that permits 5G
deployment while ensuring aviation safety, I think this says how things will go.

 

[n6hgg]

I don't get the prohibition on using HUDs to touchdown at the 5G airports. I don't know how the new airplanes work, but on old F-16A models, using the HUD to touchdown was really the best way to do an approach.

Thanks
Joel

If the radar altimeter malfunctions when 5G signals are inside of the receive filter skirts of the radar altimeter, they are not able to land at the lowest allowable visibilities presented by fog and rain etc. It takes away their ability, by regulation, to perform Auto Landings hands off, and Landing in visibilities of less than 0.5 MI. Contemporary Airline Transport Aircraft have the radar altimeter networked with many other systems in order to perform Landings with the autopilot. Autopilot Landings are commonplace and allow the airplanes to land in very low visibilities, which in turn makes life easier for those of us who travel on these airplanes. Taking a step back in time and not being able to land in low visibility means millions of dollars in Lost Revenue due to cancelled flights. And it pisses off the flying public. Radar altimeters are essential in today's technological Airline flying world. They cannot be allowed to be interfered with. The radar altimeters, with their wide filter skirts in their receivers, were here long long before the 5G cell networks and their lobbying bucks. The clueless zeros that run the FAA, the FCC, and all of the corporate interest are the ones to blame. It is the most spectacular display of the greed and oversight I have ever witnessed in my 70 years on this planet. And it is really really interesting. Again, this will be an interesting study.

 

[Omega-TI]

It'll be interesting to see how long it takes for carriers to update their entire fleets to support 5G phones on their passenger aircraft, if they even do it at all. It's my understanding that MHV's 'average' around 6-7 years. It's during this time I would imagine the proper uplink equipment would be swapped out and upgraded. I can envision a decade or so before people could even use a 5G phone on "all flights".

I must be getting old though, 4G is adequate for me, so I don't see the point in being herded like some sheep to follow the flock into buying the next "in thing". I'm sure someday they'll turn off 4G and force people into spending more money on an another overpriced phone, because all they think of the consumer is an endless money stream.

Seriously though, technology has now risen to the point that I don't believe the "average consumer" needs anymore memory or faster speed in the current generation of mid to high-end phones.

 

[alcahuete]

I don't get the prohibition on using HUDs to touchdown at the 5G airports. I don't know how the new airplanes work, but on old F-16A models, using the HUD to touchdown was really the best way to do an approach.

Thanks
Joel

I'm honestly not sure either, same with the EFVS. I'm referring to the HUDs in commercial aircraft. Military, no idea what their regulations are, or even if their radar altimeters are affected by this. I'm assuming it is because the HUDs display the RA altitudes, but I don't know why that would matter.

 

[MUTNAV]

I don't think the F-16A even had a "radar altimeter" , if it did, it was integrated with everything else so much that it wasn't visible (like fusing data from the altimeter, radar, and INS.)

I guess its just a matter of the rules, I don't think the F-16 was able to do a Cat II approach legally, but physically, probably.

My guess is that the real question for the current problem is how far do aircraft have to be separated by when doing Cat II approaches (for both physical de-confliction and to avoid interfering with each others radar altimeters), if its 5 miles then that would be a good starting point to think about. Then the power levels involved.

Would there be a problem if the aircraft started using laser altimeters? or would interference from laser pointers and other equipment (ie. laser ceilometers) be an issue. (aside from the need to refit entire fleets of aircraft).

Personally, I'm still a little annoyed at having to switch to 4g, 3g was fine for me. But my phone was eventually not allowed to make outgoing calls in order to force the switch to a new phone.

Also. wasn't this stuff figured out before hand, or is this more like the cell phone -- satallite issue with regards to GPS, where they seem to think no one will notice putting high powered broadcasters next to -nearly in the noise- satellite signals.

Thanks
Joel

 

[bearcatrp]

Also. wasn't this stuff figured out before hand, or is this more like the cell phone -- satallite issue with regards to GPS, where they seem to think no one will notice putting high powered broadcasters next to -nearly in the noise- satellite signals.

Thanks
Joel

since when has our worthless government ever planned ahead?

 

[MUTNAV]

since when has our worthless government ever planned ahead?

The government isn't that bad, we need to pay more attention to the character and qualities of the people involved with it though, and stop assuming that just because we pay them to do routine tasks, that they are able to so without supervision.

Thanks
Joel

 

[n6hgg]

Here is today's update from the aviation side of the issue, posted by Juan Browne's blancolirio YouTube channel, clarifying more details. He is an active United Airlines Boeing 777 first officer.

 

[737mech]

The whole 5G problem with aircraft is an interesting discussion here. Members are learning about the ILS and CATiiiA approaches. A week long course at some airlines to fully understand the entire avionics package to make it all work. Where was all this interest when the Russian extra GPS sat confused all the ACARS systems?

 

[vagrant]

I was testing a new antenna setup today and dialed up the local ATIS freqs to log and compare signal strength. Along with the regular stuff I heard "Notice to airmen, 5G NOTAMs are in effect. For more information contact flight service".

 

[freqhopping]

Would there be a problem if the aircraft started using laser altimeters? or would interference from laser pointers and other equipment (ie. laser ceilometers) be an issue. (aside from the need to refit entire fleets of aircraft).

A primary use of the radar altimeter is for landing in crappy weather. Lasers don't work so well fog and rain.

 

[spanky15805]

Pictures...And more reading, https://www.faa.gov/newsroom/faa-statements-5g