Police departments across the state flooded DOJ with correspondence about police radio encryption

[AuggieActually]

"The constitutions of most of our states assert that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves,"
"That it is their right and duty to be at all times armed; that they are entitled to freedom of person; freedom of religion; freedom of property; and freedom of the press."
- Thomas Jefferson

"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined"
"The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able might have a gun."
- Patrick Henry

 

[Larry-G]

Really? I've heard there are no guns in England, even your bobby's dont carry guns. You mean knives? I hear you have plenty of those. Dislike of police? Is that a social credit system? Do they query the suspects facebook for anti cop post likings for a traffic stop? And does that determine the behavior of the police against the suspect that they couldn't figure out within seconds of talking to them?

I didn’t really want to reply to this topic where not radio related but your statements are a little off the mark and as a licenced firearms holder in England I thought I might try to clear up a few things.

There are no guns in England ?. Incorrect. There are millions of licenced firearms in the UK and likely many more illegal unlicensed firearms for that matter. Correct we can’t just walk into Walmart for a loaf of bread and come out with a AR15 but

Really? I've heard there are no guns in England, even your bobby's dont carry guns. You mean knives? I hear you have plenty of those. Dislike of police? Is that a social credit system? Do they query the suspects facebook for anti cop post likings for a traffic stop? And does that determine the behavior of the police against the suspect that they couldn't figure out within seconds of talking to them?

we have access to all sorts of guns through the proper legal channels. I my self own 7 shotguns and no I’m not a farmer or some wealthy snob shooting feasants with the royals on a Sunday morning. I’m just your average joe who applied for and gained a shotgun certificate. One of more than easily 50 people I know In my own circle of friends who owns shotguns and most own long guns too. And yes we can even own pistols albeit they require some modifications and even more legal loopholes to jump through.

Even your bobbies don’t carry guns ?. Again not strictly true. While the general beat cop does not carry firearms every single police force has a dedicated rapid response firearms unit. It is not unusual to come across armed police in the uk in any large town centre / city centre or air port etc etc. Yes we have a big problem with knives in the uk simply because there the easiest weapon for the majority to get a hold of, but there’s also a large problem with guns especially with inner city gangs.

 

[Larry-G]

Im

I thought I'd pass on a great example of British secretness. During the Cold War, loads of things were really secret. For instance, near me, the underground bunkers where UK intercept fighters were controlled from was in a little Norfolk village called Neatishead. The locals of course were very aware of it's presence - but the spinning radar heads - huge overground buildings and massive nodding banana shaped height finding radars were a real give-away. However - on the Ordnance Survey maps - the Government sponsored mapping agency, it was an empty field. An official secret. Indeed - in London in Tottenham Court Rd - near theatre land and the centre of popular London, there was, for all to see a huge 600ft tall+ structure called the Post Office Tower - featuring a nuclear burst resistant shape, and loads of microwave radio link antennas. In a famous secrets trial the ABC trial, where almost everything was secret, three journalists were being tried for giving away official secrets. One of them was the Post Office Tower - again, missing from maps. In the trial it was, I believe, referred to as 'site 23' - despite the fact that every Londoner could see it! Quite a few sites are still missing from Google earth and street view. I discovered one when my drone refused to take off - I was near a geofenced secure area, recorded as a military site. I could see a field with a few nice houses. If you have google earth - look up this map reference, then try street view. 52 degs 11'40.84"N 1 deg 19'26.49"E Just south of a town called Framlingham where Ed Shearan comes from. It's 2021 and somebody has the clout to have a house in a field geofenced from DJI drones and missing from Google earth. Nobody here is that interested.

I’m a proud English man from humble council housing stock and I am a firearms holder, I’m not a farmer nor a toff. Have to say in the three threads I have read your posts so far you come across as a (insert expletive here). You don’t represent me and I am ashamed that you feel feel the need to even try.

 

[PACNWDude]

Bendix King
Harris
Kenwood

These 3 include encryption for free on latest radio's - either one or all
ADP, DES & AES.

Motorola is still ala carte

If they go DMR, every DMR radio has encryption standard.

Great point. My current employer has many privately operated fire departments spread across the United States. Many of which grew up from small towns into small cities, and grant money is not authorized for a private corporation to upgrade fire department related items like radios and Self Contained Breathing Apparatus (SCBA's).

Current radios include XTS/XTL series Motorola's that have been discontinued and unsupported, as well as XPR6xxx/7xxx series Trbo radios. Now, many locations are migrating to P25 Phase 2 where higher end APX series radios are needed. Yet many places will still be better served with a cheaper Trbo series radio with higher end mobiles being used for interoperability through dispatch console patching or bridging of systems.

While Motorola says it is not possible (as they wish to have a customer choose all ASTRO or Trbo, or buy a GEnSAC computer), connecting dissimilar radio equipment: Kenwood, Icom, Tait, Harris, and Trbo series Motorola devices can be connected via IP interface (we use Zetron 6301/6302) to Motorola Conventional Channel Gate Way (CCGW) devices to do exactly that. As you stated, there are other options to Motorola and high dollar solutions to encryption. My only dripe about Trbo and encryption is that many leave the default setting and the pull down to "Basic".......

 

[P25andstuff]

Here's a little bit of my opinion on this whole "encryption deal" sure agencies will go with encryption, May I agree with it no. But for me the bare minimum is at least keeping dispatch clear. Honestly that's all I care about, encrypt all the other channels so be it, I don't need to hear detectives or SERT talking. Here in CT a good bit is clear but you still don't really know that much. A lot of the important details and that are rather sensitive are carried through CAD/MDT, and usually you will hear a lot of "33" Troop which means a phone call. A vast majority of what I hear is just standard day to day calls and maybe something interesting will slip through, but usually anything rather important is in the CAD or over a phone call. I honestly think stopping the online streaming of police could slow down encryption as that's what criminals are using to get a minor lead on the cops. I don't think online radio streaming will ever stop but I think it would help us scanner listeners enjoy our hobby for just that much longer.

 

[fredva]

Great point. My current employer has many privately operated fire departments spread across the United States. Many of which grew up from small towns into small cities, and grant money is not authorized for a private corporation to upgrade fire department related items like radios and Self Contained Breathing Apparatus (SCBA's).

Privately operated fire departments? That serve the public? We don't have any of those around my area. I'm curious about how they would be financed.

 

[WX4JCW]

and this is why it needs to be Political, it seems like the only time people actually listen is if enough political pressure is applied, mmckenna can disagree all he wants but he takes joy in telling "scanner hobbyists" where to go constantly

 

[WX4JCW]

Privately operated fire departments? That serve the public? We don't have any of those around my area. I'm curious about how they would be financed.

Rural Metro has done it for years in Arizona, they will bill based on incident, they tried to establish it in Orlando and the IAFF pushed back hard

 

[ten13]

It seems many people are missing one of the more important reasons why departments encrypt: not what's being heard on the radio, but what is being TRANSMITTED on police frequencies, especially during times of riots and other tumult.

The Riots of the Summer of 2020, especially in NYC, caused many anarchist and agitators to transmit false emergency calls on their CCRs during some of the more destructive episodes, including the dreaded "Assist Officer" radio runs which all but mandated the redirection of otherwise committed cops to a false alarm, sometimes with drastic results.

Now there will be some here who seem to think that encrypting a radio is just a matter of having the information and programming a radio...for a radio tech maybe...and a high-end radio tech at that.

But wholesale programming by "radio enthusiasts," the same "enthusiasts" who have great difficulty in programing one talk group into their SDS radio, would be out of the question.

Encryption is something whose time has come, and we all better get used to it.

 

[fredva]

Rural Metro has done it for years in Arizona, they will bill based on incident, they tried to establish it in Orlando and the IAFF pushed back hard

Thanks for the info.

 

[AuggieActually]

It seems many people are missing one of the more important reasons why departments encrypt: not what's being heard on the radio, but what is being TRANSMITTED on police frequencies, especially during times of riots and other tumult.

The Riots of the Summer of 2020, especially in NYC, caused many anarchist and agitators to transmit false emergency calls on their CCRs during some of the more destructive episodes, including the dreaded "Assist Officer" radio runs which all but mandated the redirection of otherwise committed cops to a false alarm, sometimes with drastic results.

Now there will be some here who seem to think that encrypting a radio is just a matter of having the information and programming a radio...for a radio tech maybe...and a high-end radio tech at that.

But wholesale programming by "radio enthusiasts," the same "enthusiasts" who have great difficulty in programing one talk group into their SDS radio, would be out of the question.

Encryption is something whose time has come, and we all better get used to it.

NYC is using unencrypted FM and not encrypted and/or trunked digital for police TAC and dispatch channels?? Seems like they are inviting deliberate interference.

 

[MTS2000des]

NYC is also rolling out fully AES-256 OTAR capable subscribers. It take quite a bit of time and logistics to swap out subscribers and migrate dispatch sites to full time strapped encryption for an agency of their size and scope. It's only a matter of time.

 

[PACNWDude]

Privately operated fire departments? That serve the public? We don't have any of those around my area. I'm curious about how they would be financed.

There are many first response elements spread across the country that are private corporations, and it will probably become "the way of the future" for many cash strapped municipalities, larger corporations, and certain industries. Prior to this position, I also was responsible for emergency communications for a private corporation that cleaned up oil spills for the US Coast Guard.....a not for profit with a fleet of ships and nationwide radio network (staffed by many former White House Comm Agency/military comms personnel), that was often built out for incidents like hurricanes: Katrina, Rita, Wilma, and the 2010 Deepwater Horizon response. Funding comes from corporate profit margins, and hardware is dependent on interoperability requirements and local infrastructure. Which is why there is a combo of Motorola ASTRO and Trbo elements, connected via Zetron IP interface hardware. Negotiating Mutual Aid Agreements is the rough part, then technology, and last budget for upgrades.

 

[PACNWDude]

Rural Metro has done it for years in Arizona, they will bill based on incident, they tried to establish it in Orlando and the IAFF pushed back hard

Arizona is a "thorn in my side" as interoperability has been held up in legal limbo for several years now (TOPAZ network). This is also one area where ASTRO and Trbo collide, so many interop solutions are via old school analog, and guidance per the NIFOG. It is workable, but many firefighters carry APX8000's and/or XPR7550e Trbo radios depending on position and responsibility.

 

[WX4JCW]

It seems many people are missing one of the more important reasons why departments encrypt: not what's being heard on the radio, but what is being TRANSMITTED on police frequencies, especially during times of riots and other tumult.

The Riots of the Summer of 2020, especially in NYC, caused many anarchist and agitators to transmit false emergency calls on their CCRs during some of the more destructive episodes, including the dreaded "Assist Officer" radio runs which all but mandated the redirection of otherwise committed cops to a false alarm, sometimes with drastic results.

Now there will be some here who seem to think that encrypting a radio is just a matter of having the information and programming a radio...for a radio tech maybe...and a high-end radio tech at that.

But wholesale programming by "radio enthusiasts," the same "enthusiasts" who have great difficulty in programing one talk group into their SDS radio, would be out of the question.

Encryption is something whose time has come, and we all better get used to it.

I couldn’t disagree more, but then again I’m not much of a lay down and take it person, the cool thing about being an American is we have the ability to make our voices heard and it’s awesome.

Quite a few examples of that in American History, I believe the first one was being told we should get used to British Rule, it’s an oversimplification but you get the point

 

[wsmoore]

That is why you are on this Web Site. I think you wish you had these Freedoms in England. That is why our Forefathers left England in the First Place !!!! FREEDOM !!!!

I love the US obsession with rights. Us Brits think it’s almost comical. Your sovereign citizens, and every person seemingly knowing the wording of the Declaration of Independence. Here, most people have never heard of the Magna Carta or King John. Most people don’t even know who was the last King, and now many have never heard of Hitler or Winston Curchill. We have strict data protection rules. A Criminal’s history is secret. The police cannot share it with the public. Reading out personal data on a radio link with unknown people listening is simply not allowed. Knowing where a police car is going with flashing lights is secret. The press and tv cannot get private knowledge of events.

 

[WX4JCW]

That is why you are on this Web Site. I think you wish you had these Freedoms in England. That is why our Forefathers left England in the First Place !!!! FREEDOM !!!!

Honestly my Grandmother was from Worcester, my Great Grandfather died on the HMS Exmouth in Jan 1940 and could still care less about British Opinion

 

[StoliRaz]

I love the US obsession with rights. Us Brits think it’s almost comical. Your sovereign citizens, and every person seemingly knowing the wording of the Declaration of Independence. Here, most people have never heard of the Magna Carta or King John. Most people don’t even know who was the last King, and now many have never heard of Hitler or Winston Curchill. We have strict data protection rules. A Criminal’s history is secret. The police cannot share it with the public. Reading out personal data on a radio link with unknown people listening is simply not allowed. Knowing where a police car is going with flashing lights is secret. The press and tv cannot get private knowledge of events. Vehicle details and passenger details are secret. Police radios are encrypted and all police wear ear pieces so the public cannot hear the speakers on the radios. If they stop a vehicle the driver is not aware they are fed info about them, like identifying features and history, why they’re talking to them. Thry get warnings of concealed weapons or a dislike of the police.

All the excuses for bring able to listen to the Police are feeble. People just want to listen for fun, or if not for fun/interest, then the ONLY reason is potentially criminal reasons. Nobody needs to listen. The US citizen seems hell bent on rights, and knows them word for word. Sadly, it’s viewed at a distance as some kind of national paranoia - just amazing. Sorry. When our police went encrypted the scanner users moaned for a week, shrugged and moved on.

Well if those damned British kings weren't busy squashing our rights back in the day, maybe Americans wouldn't value freedom so highly..so thank yourselves 😝

 

[zapman987]

Privately operated fire departments? That serve the public? We don't have any of those around my area. I'm curious about how they would be financed.

Many large industrial sites have an engine and a fast response team of employees. Its both an insurance thing, as well as an on site hazmat team that can clean up (most public hazmat teams mitigate but dont clean).

Ive seen many decent size (not even large) businesses encourage or have a quick response medical team as well for employees and/or customers.

 

[fredva]

Many large industrial sites have an engine and a fast response team of employees. Its both an insurance thing, as well as an on site hazmat team that can clean up (most public hazmat teams mitigate but dont clean).

Ive seen many decent size (not even large) businesses encourage or have a quick response medical team as well for employees and/or customers.

Yes, I was aware that industrial plants sometimes have their own fire apparatus and firefighters, as well as EMS crews. The plant I worked at one summer did, for example. But a private business protecting its own property and its own on-site workers wasn't what we were talking about in this thread. It was the concept of private fire departments responding to fires at residences and other businesses, just like a public fire department. According to the response I got, this happens in certain areas, and the private fire department bills the entity which had the emergency (or perhaps its insurance) in order to fund its operations.