Police union calls new radios trash

[nevadasky]

Police union calls new radios trash


RENO GAZETTE-JOURNAL
10/6/2004 11:05 pm



Union representatives for state peace officers say Nevada’s new $10 million statewide radio system is a failure and called on the state to fix it or scrap it.

Assembly Minority Leader Lynn Hettrick said legislators were assured the additional money would fix a Nevada Highway Patrol radio system that was illegally operating on frequencies not approved by the federal government.

If the new statewide radio system doesn’t work, Hettrick, R-Gardnerville, said, “I see people who pushed this thing answering to a lot of questions.”

The State Peace Officers Council, representing about 130 employees in 11 state law enforcement agencies such as the Nevada Division of Parole and Probation and the Nevada Taxi Cab Authority, this week issued a statement criticizing the state’s new radio system.

“In the interest of public safety, officer safety and in order to operate an effective Nevada Homeland Defense Program, it is imperative that this radio system be fixed or replaced immediately,” Peace Officers Council President Ron Cuzze said in the statement.

But the man leading the effort to repair the new radio system, out of service since Sept. 2, said the system is far from a failure.

“If everything does go smooth and we resolve these issues, I’ll bet we’ll be back on it within 10 days,” said Richard Sheldrew, communications director for the Nevada Department of Transportation, which is putting together the radio system for the NHP and other state law enforcement agencies.

The NHP spent $14 million for a Motorola radio system activated in 2000 but later learned it was using airwaves without the approval of the Federal Communications Commission.

The State Board of Examiners, led by Gov. Kenny Guinn, agreed last October to spend about $10 million to buy almost 1,800 new radios from Massachusetts-based M/A-Com. This was so the NHP system and radios used by other state peace officers would work on the existing NDOT communication system.

The NHP made the switch to the newer system for the Reno NHP dispatch center earlier this year.

The NHP tried to switch over to that newer system for the Clark County on Aug. 25. But it switched back to the older, illegal Motorola system on Sept. 2 after several problems, including a Nevada Taxi Cab Authority peace officer not being able to use her radio when she needed to call for back up.

“If we’re having issues as severe as that, they have to be properly mitigated,” said NHP Capt. Chris Perry, who is coordinating the radio change for the patrol. “The problem has to be solved before we can go back to that system.”

Hettrick said the malfunctioning system could be a danger to troopers or other peace officers.

“I don’t want to run around being the scare monger, but there’s a potential,” Hettrick said.

The Peace Officers Council called on the state to use money from what the council calls a $145 million tax surplus to fix the radio system or buy a new one.

Hettrick said legislators are going to be reluctant to spend more.

Sheldrew said the new system is working without problems in the Reno area.

Sheldrew conceded he expected to have the Clark County NHP radio system working by now.

“Given how it went in Reno, I did not anticipate the problems we’ve had in Vegas,” Sheldrew said.

On Wednesday in Clark County, the NHP completed a 72-hour test that was largely successful, Sheldrew said.

The next step will be sending technicians or other qualified people with troopers and other radio users to pinpoint why a radio doesn’t work properly, Sheldrew said. It could be the radio, the dispatch console, the backbone connecting the two or training, he said.

Sheldrew expects another 72-hour test in Clark County next week, and if it works well then, the NHP could be back on the new system soon after that.

 

[nevadan]

check out the second to last paragraph---there going to send a radio tech out in the field with an officer pinpointing dead spots for poor to no communication(s)-----mr. sheldrew suggest could be due to training or lack of----------is this guy a comic?---------i could have saved the state $9,999,000. I would have charged a fee of $1,000. for ten minutes, for consultation to recommend----FORGET RURAL TRUNKING ON 800MHZ!! nhp switch to 42.000mhz-------- now Mr. sheldrew was my option a better deal?

 

[northzone]

Union representatives for state peace officers say Nevada’s new $10 million statewide radio system is a failure and called on the state to fix it or scrap it.

Oh sure, Scrap it. Well just go down to K-mart and buy another one. It was NHP personnel that created this mess (we don't need no stinking license). Sometimes cops say things that really make them look like fools. And God help our poor little tax cab enforcement agent, what a bunch of nonsense.

 

[BJ_NORTON]

I Laugh every time I think about NHP not having a license for the radios. I wonder if I could use the same excuse if they pulled me over. What does the NHP need a trunked system for anyway? All they need is a dispatch channel and a car to car channel. Its not like they have a whole lot of different groups using the radio. I agree with the poster who suggested they go back to 42mhz. The longer wavelength would DECREASE the amount of repeater sites, and has better groundwave propagation. I have a friend in a rural county that is a State radio tech. He has actually been driving with officers trying to pinpoint deadspots and trying to figure out how to fox them. I told him the solution was not to use 800mhz; he agreed, but just like you and me he does what his boss tells him to do. As For Taxi cabs, right now that is a bit of a hot button issue in clark county after a cabbie got set on fire and killed last month, so I would look for politicians trying to appease them for a while.

 

[sigint1]

Let me see - as far as I know there are about 8000 peace officers in the state - this union represents only a 130 emoloyees - not a very impressive amount - little over 1% - I don't know of any radio system that will cover Nevada or any other state 100% - I can remember monitoring NHP when they were on 42 MHZ and on the 150 mhz trunked system - and there were dead spots then also - Same with CHP - there can be a dozen factors both manmade and natural on why a particular radio my not be able to communicate at a particular moment no matter what frequency or type of system it may be operating on. My opinion is let them get it up where they say it is up and running and see how it works then - all you have to do is browse this and other sites like strong signals and you can see reports of systems all over the country that are having similar problems - any electromechanical system is going to have some problems sometime - its just the nature of the beast - stuff happens - unfortunately sometimes at critical moments - simple as that - the Nevada system is by no means unique in this respect. Richard had this mess dumped on him after the NHP license fiasco - Let him have a chance to get the mess straightened out.

 

[northzone]

Very well said Joe.

 

[BJ_NORTON]

I guess I wonder why did they swithch from lowband in the first place? I don't think the NHP really needs sophisticated technology to run license plates and drivers license numbers. What was the motivation? I understand the move to 800mhz, was not their first choice, but because someone didn't get a license they were in the wrong and had to act quickly.

I remember reading somewhere that the current system is causing interference all the way to San Fransico. I wonder if it would have been cheaper to aquire a license for the 150 system and help move the people they were interfering with to a different band. They already knew that the "illegal" system was working. What if instead of spending tens of millions of dollars moving the entire state to a different band, they spent a million or two to move smalltownville California to 450 or something? Then they could have licesened the 150 system, and not caused interference. Did they even consider that option?

 

[northzone]

The reason most everyone is getting off lowband (42mhz) is that it is getting almost impossible to get Public Safety grade equipment. Yes, I know Kenwood and Vertex and even the big "M" makes mobiles. But try to get a Public Safety grade base station or repeater. Motorola...No, GE/Macom....No. There is also the ongoing interference problem when the sunspot cycles are right.

As to moving others that is not how it works. You cause the interference you move. One of NHP's channels was causing major interference to California's primary statewide wildland firefighting air to ground channel on 151.220. Their was also a host of other interference issues from several states.

I had really hoped they could work things out and stay, because the vhf system was working very well for the most part and was great for interop with the local systems. As it is they are going to keep all the vhf mobiles in the cars for interop with the local sheriffs and other agencies.

I think too the FCC felt that a lot of people were watching this situation and felt they need to send a strong message. It is too bad for the taxpayer and the officers caught in the middle of all this.

 

[PJH]

Lowband is basically.....dead.

Now before all of you guys start jumping around on that...

To purchase lowband equipment is quite expensive now. Instead of 10-20 makes/models, you have maybe 5 public safety grade radio lines out there (not counting bandsplits), maybe less.

The last "real" lowband radio from Motorola was the Syntor X9000...circa 1989ish, if not 1987. Their only lowband radio in production is the Maratrac. That's been around for at least 10-15 years.

GE/Ericsson/MA-COM has the Orion line that is being replaced shortly. That's been around for years as well. Outside of those two, there isn't really anything new or exciting out.

It is more viable to purchase existing supported products with a longer lifecycle and support. VHF would be my choice, but in the large flatlands on NV, 800 still has some good range. Just because its trunking, it doesn't mean its bad.

Remember, the system is there to support multiple agencies in multiple juristicitions. Why have 100's of pairs of frequencies when you can have signficially less with a better utilization of them?

RF propagation is a very real concen using VHF-Lo or Hi. Hell, I get CHP-LA here in Connecticut on most good days on the MSP lowband channel. We use to get Metro-Dade Fire rescue as well. Where I use to work, a couple of depts in Texas would "desense" a couple of our satelite sites on VHF-Hi after midnight.

NHP tried to get licenses and begged and pleaded for the FCC to issue them. The FCC said no and made an example of them. You just don't go out and "buy" licenses in public safety.

Please consider posting true statements in the future. If you are new, please sit back and learn first before jumping on the scannerworld armchair "we know everything" attitude.

New systems are tested to find these problems. In a sense its a good thing to have this happen. They are aware of the problem now as opposed to later when the other radios are removed.

Techs riding around with system users is nothing new. It happens all the time and is usually a required item with system implementation to find the faults.
[/rant off]

 

[northzone]

PJH, well said and mirrors my post above. Lowband is dead for all practrical purposes. I completely agree there are alot of scanner folks that think they know something about radio but don't have a clue. But it is a hobby and hopefully they are learning. :wink:

 

[KidNV]

As the story goes, nextel is causing interference to the new trunked system, as well as it's competitors. FCC told them to fix it, they cant, so they're moving to new freqs. As these sites change, a massive changeout for nextel, the NHP system problems will decrease. Probably would have helped if nextel had installed some TX filters, but, they 'didn't need no stinkin filters'. Almost like NHP 'didnt need no stinkin license' ....

 

[northzone]

Not really. Nextel is pretty much staying in the section of the band they are currently in. It is almost every public safety system in the US that will have to change frequenceis if this thing goes (still has court battles ahead). Nextel will foot the cost.

But this is very different from the Nevada deal, Nextel has licenses for the channesl they are on.

 

[N_Jay]

Don't forget about the significant increase in noise due to computer equipment affecting Lowband.

Anyone here remember the "extender" option on Low Band radios?
That worked for impulse noise, but there is nothing you can do to fix wide band hash across the band.

 

[northzone]

Yes, the lowband CHP motrans actually had a switch on the control head to turn the "extender" on/off. It was actually like a recevier in a receiver looking for am noise. The micors had them too but no switch. Come to think of it the current GE rangers have them also.

 

[BJ_NORTON]

I am not lamenting the change from lo-band. My main beef with it was if it isn't broke don't fix it. Once every 11 years you get skip coming in. I agree that could be annoying, but I thought that was one of the reasons CTCSS was invented for. I don't know the reasons why they changed and moved off. That was before I got into hobby radio. And to be honest this whole discussion of lo band is a moot point. I liked the Idea that the state was using the same radios as the locals. I spent a year and a half driving a Semi truck up and down US 93 4 days a week, and I remember many times hearing the NHP talking to locals on each others tac channels. Also, in Elko county, at least, I remember a few times NHP giving directions to NDOT snowplows to areas that needed sanding on talk-around 151.xxx channels.

Back to moving others that you are interfering with, why not? It may not be "how it works" but wouldn't that be a reasonable way of eliminating interference? Maybe not in this particular instance, but instead of spending millions and millions and millions, why not give the people you are interfering with an entirely new system and equipment and completely help them move if it saves the state a lot of money? I understand that if it was a statewide system from another state, ok, maybe not feasible, but I was thinking out loud. And here again, how hard would it be to shift things around in Nevada, so they weren't using that particular frequency. I don't know who else they were interfering with, but I know the UP railroad wasn't particularly pleased that some of their channels were being used as repeater inputs. I just can't help but think that CTCSS, DCS, and antenna patterns designed to reduce interference, could have been cheaper than leveling mountain tops, and building entirely new repeater sites, as well as all this new equipment that is being bought. Maybe it would have been throwing good money after bad, but that doesn't matter either, since several mountains now have flat tops.


I think the FCC should have been a lot harder on the state than they were. If I was running the show, you can bet I would have been handing out some serious fines as well as making some changes happen pretty quick.

Interoperability now becomes an issue in all counties but Clark and Washoe. The two counties with the largest amount law enforcement officers can talk, but all the rural counties where officers are spread much thinner, can now no longer listen to other responding agencies , or pick up the mic and talk directly to that agency. The NHP is going to continue to carry around the "old" radios too. Does that not sound completely asinine to anyone else? They are going to carry around equipment they legally still can't use in their patrol cars? What is going to happen When someone escapes from the Ely State Prison. White Pine can't even patrol McGill which is only 13 miles from Ely. They are going to need help, and they will want to be able to talk to NHP to coordinate their search aren't they?

I suppose a lot of this will eventually work itself out in the end, but in a state that tries to be frugal, and prides itself on keeping taxes down (how many companies left California's high taxes to move to Nevada), it upsets me to see Nevadans falling into the same entanglement I have seen so many other agencies fall into across the nation. How many other states and counties and towns have you read about where radio problems seem to go on for years, and costs quickly rise far higher than ever projected? That seems to go against the common sense most people in Nevada have.

_____________________________________________________________

anyway, that was me ranting about somebody elses stupidity, and my inablity to do anything about it, when the ramifications are so possibly high in dollars and lives

I'll get off the soapbox now, and go back to all this "new stuff" to listen to that we didn't have in lil' ole Elko

 

[PJH]

Seeing that a vast amount of agencies do use VHF-Hi does not make the VHF radio's installed in the vehicle worthless...or illegal. They can easily be reprogrammed for local/regional agencies for interop.

Reguardless of the 11 year cycle you mentioned, proprogation happens anytime. True there is more of a chance at the peak, but my examples happened in the off peak seaon. Reguardless of PL/DPL settings, it still happens. Locally, a regional dispatch center is getting a distant station in out their repeater input. The PL's were different (but close) but by the time it hit their recievers it "mutated" enough that it got into their system.

In addition, it will now be easier for NHP, NDOT and anyother agency to implement data services with the TRS, vs having to have two different systems in place to do the same thing. I don't know if they are doing that, just thowing it out there.

As opposed to VHF vs 800, I have been able to Rx in my truck TRS's from at 40-50 miles away. Durham NC and a couple in Ohio. I was quite suprised myself.

RF spectrum is scarce these days. In statewide applications, TRS's are a very good option. I'll use CSP as an example.

CSP was the first agency to use lowband in a police enviroment. 1 channel per troop, 10 channels all together. Sure, it worked fine for the first set of moons ago, but now many moons later, it doesn't. In 1996 CSP finally went out and bought an 800 Digital SmartZone system. Battling all the hills/valley/shoreline that is in this state, they now have a 128 channel system with intergrated data/CAD/GPS etc. A trooper at the RI line can talk to someone else at the NY border with no intervention required.

Can't do that with a conventional system without a complex patch setup.

Someone said that why not give the other agency to move them off. That has the potentional to cost much more than they offending system when its all over and done with. Labor costs alone would be killer, never mind equipment reconfiguration/replacement costs.

Nextel is an issue, but had Nextel not buy up all the SMR's, people would be blaming all the SMR carriers that operated. Either way, the FCC screwed up years ago when they did the frequency allcolations in that band segment...but again, no one had any idea that cell would take off so quickly since IMTS wasn't too popular.

I'm not trying to jump all over anyone, I just like to kill the misconceptions before they begin and post get out of control due to the lack of knowledge that many people have here on the board. Its like the guy who called me last week at work who said we were having radio problems. Because he couldn't hear us very well anymore he was trying to convince me that our repeater was having a problem and went on about all sorts of road testing that he did with his scanner..blah blah blah. Basically I thanked him and hung up. A quick check with the guys revleaed no problems.

A week later he called back and wanted to know why I didn't fix anything, FCC violation etc. Riiiiggghhhtttt. Considering my 100 watt repeater is putting out 45 watts out on my 175ft tower with a 150 watt ERP and it all checks out.... That's where I get aggravated. And this isn't an isolated case either. You wouldn't believe what kind of calls I get thoughout the year. I can't wait until we make the perm digital switchover in a couple of months. :lol:

Pj
(Transplanted from the left coast)

 

[DaveNF2G]

Which flavor of Tyco/MA-Com/GE trunking is this statewide system? Is it another OpenSky boondoggle?

 

[PJH]

Straight EDACS from what I have seen.

 

[nwadler]

Correct me if I am wrong but wont a higher wave length such as 800mhz tx. better out of a concrete building than lowband would. I still can not believe that someone would let them put a system up and not ask, hey do we have the licenses needed :shock:

 

[Pro-95]

Which flavor of Tyco/MA-Com/GE trunking is this statewide system? Is it another OpenSky boondoggle?

Naw that's Lost Wages's system. Washoe County and the State is your basic EDACS. Nye County is ASTRO 3600. The remaining counties are 150Mhz non-trunked.

How's that for interoperability.