Possible Detector Failure Prior to Ohio Derailment

[fredva]

The train which derailed in East Palestine, OH was throwing off major sparks 20 miles before the derailment, at the location of a detector which is supposed to detect and report excessive heat. There are questions about why the crew didn't get the warning. Video shows sparks and flames well before Ohio train derailment

 

[CcSkyEye]

I'm surprised it lasted 20 more and didn't fail and derail earlier.

 

[AK9R]

According to the Norfolk Southern Pittsburgh Division August 4, 2008, employee timetable, here are the locations of defect detectors that an eastbound train would have passed approaching East Palestine:

PC 89.4 Maximo Hot Box Detector/Dragging Equipment Detector (HBD/DED)
PC 79.6 Sebring HBD/DED
PC 69.0 Salem HBD/DED
PC 60.8 Columbiana DED
PC 49.8 East Palestine HBD/DED

Of course, these locations may have changed since 2008.

 

[laidback]

There still there : Defect Detector Database

 

[tvengr]

I don't believe hotboxes are as prevalent since the advent of roller bearings. Sparking would seem to indicate a dragging equipment problem.

 

[oneadam12-va]

I don't believe hotboxes are as prevalent since the advent of roller bearings. Sparking would seem to indicate a dragging equipment problem.

The bearings can overheat, even with sealed bearings...I have heard many time over the past years where the NS dispatcher will have a train stop when safe to do so because a wheel set was trending hot...I was on Amtrak19, before covid, and we had to stop 3 times between Washington, DC and Danville, Va due to wheel sets trending hot. 1st was outside of Manassas Va. a stone was lodged between a wheel set and brakes. The 2nd was for sticking brakes on one set of wheels on a different car. The 3rd was just before the station in Danville, with another set trending hot again different from the first two...the train limped into Greensboro, NC where they dropped off the car from the last defect due to sticking brakes, that wouldn't release...

 

[tvengr]

.I was on Amtrak19, before covid, and we had to stop 3 times between Washington, DC and Danville, Va due to wheel sets trending hot. 1st was outside of Manassas Va. a stone was lodged between a wheel set and brakes. The 2nd was for sticking brakes on one set of wheels on a different car. The 3rd was just before the station in Danville, with another set trending hot again different from the first two...the train limped into Greensboro, NC where they dropped off the car from the last defect due to sticking brakes, that wouldn't release...

Sounds like you have the same luck that I have. Do the trainmen still use Tempilstiks to check temperature?

 

[oneadam12-va]

Sounds like you have the same luck that I have. Do the trainmen still use Tempilstiks to check temperature?

As far as that trip on 19 they did, the conductor(a friend of mine, and a dead ringer for Steve Carell) reported that on each stop the sticks melted...the first two were easily repaired, but the last stop the brakes wouldn't release for that wheel set.

 

[AK9R]

Do the trainmen still use Tempilstiks to check temperature?

And, handheld infrared temperature sensors. Most of them have "laser" pointers so you can "shoot" the temperature while walking along the track.

Hot bearings are still very much a thing. Dragging equipment from failed brake rigging, dislodged brake shoes, broken wheels, sliding wheels, and broken axles still happen.

Does the FRA have a standard for the minimum distance between defect detectors? I'm guessing that they don't. The rail line closest to me sees 4-6 trains per day plus Amtrak plus the occasional ethanol train. About 40 miles with no defect detectors.

 

[wa8pyr]

According to the Norfolk Southern Pittsburgh Division August 4, 2008, employee timetable, here are the locations of defect detectors that an eastbound train would have passed approaching East Palestine:

PC 89.4 Maximo Hot Box Detector/Dragging Equipment Detector (HBD/DED)
PC 79.6 Sebring HBD/DED
PC 69.0 Salem HBD/DED
PC 60.8 Columbiana DED
PC 49.8 East Palestine HBD/DED

Of course, these locations may have changed since 2008.

2012 timetable shows the same, but as you noted things might have changed. Unlikely, though; once these things are plopped down somewhere they rarely move.

The only change I think likely would be that detectors for dragging equipment only were upgraded to full defect detectors. Conrail (and this is a former Conrail, nee-PC and PRR line) was big on dragging equipment-only detectors interspersed among the "everything" detectors.

A buddy of mine used to be in charge of the defect detector R&D program for Conrail before the breakup in 1999; I got to see several of their installations, both DED and evertyhing. Fascinating things.

Does the FRA have a standard for the minimum distance between defect detectors? I'm guessing that they don't. The rail line closest to me sees 4-6 trains per day plus Amtrak plus the occasional ethanol train. About 40 miles with no defect detectors.

I think they recommend, but I've never heard of a required standard. Last I heard, 10 to 20 miles was recommended.

 

[oneadam12-va]

And, handheld infrared temperature sensors. Most of them have "laser" pointers so you can "shoot" the temperature while walking along the track.

Hot bearings are still very much a thing. Dragging equipment from failed brake rigging, dislodged brake shoes, broken wheels, sliding wheels, and broken axles still happen.

Does the FRA have a standard for the minimum distance between defect detectors? I'm guessing that they don't. The rail line closest to me sees 4-6 trains per day plus Amtrak plus the occasional ethanol train. About 40 miles with no defect detectors.

The FRA does have regulations on lineside detectors, as far as distance between detectors, I am not sure as the average is about 20 miles apart. Here on NS Piedmont Division they are about 20 miles apart. I do know of a couple railroads that have them closer together, as I believe they are on the line in question, not all detectors do the same thing, some are for excessive load limits, outside of a plate C (standard car size), where there are clearance issues tunnels, bridges etc., some only do dragging equipment. For the most part the detectors cover the big two issues of dragging equipment and overheated wheel sets.

 

[tvengr]

As far as that trip on 19 they did, the conductor(a friend of mine, and a dead ringer for Steve Carell) reported that on each stop the sticks melted...the first two were easily repaired, but the last stop the brakes wouldn't release for that wheel set.

Thanks! My father was a Pennsylvania Railroad man and often talked about the Tempilstiks.

 

[mtindor]

- interesting take

 

[gary123]

Complacency is the root cause of many accidents. "I checked it but it was ok or did not see anything wrong" or "It would have messed up the whole schedule to have to fix it right there or then." and my favorite "It was not my job" and its partner in crime "I was not trained about that".

This is not to say the crew did anything wrong or were responsible or negligent in any way. This accident is looking like an infrastructure failure. The point I am making is it is very easy to ignore an issue and hope it goes away or fixes its self. We must also bear in mind that its easy to sit on the sidelines and point fingers.

 

[oneadam12-va]

Like his video's...
Neat operation there, they are a rail isolated operation in PA.

That's also one of the cleanest lineside "shacks" that I have seen...

 

[timkilbride]

The FRA does have regulations on lineside detectors, as far as distance between detectors, I am not sure as the average is about 20 miles apart. Here on NS Piedmont Division they are about 20 miles apart. I do know of a couple railroads that have them closer together, as I believe they are on the line in question, not all detectors do the same thing, some are for excessive load limits, outside of a plate C (standard car size), where there are clearance issues tunnels, bridges etc., some only do dragging equipment. For the most part the detectors cover the big two issues of dragging equipment and overheated wheel sets.

Do you by change have the CFR on the detector regulations? I have never heard of such a thing during my time as a legislative representative for my railroad union. I would like to educate myself on such regulations.

Thanks

Tim

 

[oneadam12-va]

Do you by change have the CFR on the detector regulations? I have never heard of such a thing during my time as a legislative representative for my railroad union. I would like to educate myself on such regulations.

Thanks

Tim

There was a research grant by the FRA, again not sure of a CFR; but, there was a project that the FRA was working on with the Long Island Railroad and a couple others from several years ago with recommendations on placing of detectors etc.

 

[fredva]

According to the NTSB's preliminary report, the wheel bearing showed increased temperature after passing two default detectors but it wasn't until the train reached a third detector at East Palestine that the temperature passed the 200 degree threshold requiring the train to stop. When the crew put the brakes on was when the derailment occurred. Video showed wheel bearing was in "final stage of overheat failure" before Ohio train derailed, report says

 

[wa8pyr]

According to the NTSB's preliminary report, the wheel bearing showed increased temperature after passing two default detectors but it wasn't until the train reached a third detector at East Palestine that the temperature passed the 200 degree threshold requiring the train to stop. When the crew put the brakes on was when the derailment occurred. Video showed wheel bearing was in "final stage of overheat failure" before Ohio train derailed, report says

Not sure how they reconcile that with the video showing sparks flying 20 miles west of East Palestine.

 

[fredva]

Not sure how they reconcile that with the video showing sparks flying 20 miles west of East Palestine.

Presumably, that was where the detector had the 103 degree reading. Was that a low reading? Should the threshold be lower? Should there be more detectors? TBD I guess.