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Pr0-96/2096 and 700 megahertz

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RadioMarkW

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As I understand it the "Win96" program can open up the 700 meghertz frequencies on this scanner.

Do they come in well?

Also is it possable to get the units to trunk in this range, maybe with the expanded/custom tables? Has anyone tryied this?

Thanks,

Mark
 

DaveIN

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The PRO-96/2096 will decode the P25 audio in the 700MHz range and scan conventionally, but will not trunk scan.
 

RoninJoliet

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Here in my area the Village of Plainfield IL has joined the IL Starcom 800-700 system. The decoding is great on my PRO96 and 2096 even tho they have not turned on alot of towers. My PRO96 works great with the RS 800 duck and near a window with good reception of the data channel even tho its doing the 700 conv- on 774.55625....The 2096 is connected to a RS 200-0176 ground plane in the attic with 30' of LMR400. With that antenna i do NOT need to use the "ATT" on VHF and 700 is great. When the 2096 is connected to the Channel Master Triband up 30' on my tower using 75' of 9913 coax i must use the "ATT" on VHF only and some depts are now received as were not before its use. However, when it comes to 700 and some 800 signals the coax loss is worse and reception poor on the tower antenna vs the attic with a short run....Win96 works wonders in opening up 700mgz on RS scanners even in conv-mode.....
 

rdale

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But all 700MHz transmssions are trunked, so it doesn't matter really...
 

DPS8504

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DaveIN said:
The PRO-96/2096 will decode the P25 audio in the 700MHz range and scan conventionally, but will not trunk scan.
Do the 700Mhz turnked systems work differently than a 800 Mhz trunked system? If not it should still follow the trunking system.
 

DPS8504

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rdale said:
The Pro96 does _not_ follow trunked systems that use 700MHz.
Do the 700 Mhz systems work differently? I am asking because I do not know. Is there a difference the trunking protocols ?
Our agency is installing a 700Mhz P25 system at Capitol Police in Austin and it will interface with the Austin PD 800 P25 system. I would like to be able to listen when in Austin staying at the training academy.
 

rdale

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It differs in channel assignments. The Pro96 rejects any assignment to 700MHz frequencies on the control channel since it wasn't developed with 700MHz reception in mind.
 

hiegtx

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DPS8504 said:
Do the 700 Mhz systems work differently? I am asking because I do not know. Is there a difference the trunking protocols ?
Our agency is installing a 700Mhz P25 system at Capitol Police in Austin and it will interface with the Austin PD 800 P25 system. I would like to be able to listen when in Austin staying at the training academy.
Scooter,
They don't work differently as far as I know, but the 96 & 2096 were not designed with the 700mhz spectrum in mind. It can be accessed to receive by enabling in WIN96. But the firmware apparently will not recognize it as a valid section of spectrum for trunk tracking. I believe someone asked Don Starr this some time back, if it could be handled with a custom table; I think his answer then was no. If anyone could develop a work around, you'd figure he could, and would pass it along.

The only digital scanners for now that will trunk track 700mhz are the Uniden 396 & 996.
I think the 330 might track a non-digital 700 system. Saw a mention of a 700mhz LTR here in DFW a month or so ago, keep forgetting to look it up & try it just to see.

I see rdale beat me to most of my answer.
 

rdale

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DPS8504 said:
Does anyone know if there will be an upgrade to the Pro-96 so that it can track the 700 trunk systems.
The Pro96/2096 can't be updated like the Uniden scanners, only the P25 decode routines can be upgraded (which won't help with trunktracking.)
 

902

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rdale said:
But all 700MHz transmssions are trunked, so it doesn't matter really...
No, they are not.

There are potential conventional applications in 700 MHz. On-scene operations, such as fireground or tactical ops are likely candidates for conventional, as are low power campus systems for certain facilities. My RPC has set aside campus frequencies for applications such as malls, stadiums and other similar structures which would not require a full trunksite.

Edit: with the exception of 12 analog ELIGIBLE low power channel pairs (they CAN be analog, but DON'T HAVE TO), ALL 700 MHz operation requires digital modulation which achieves the efficiency of 1 voicepath (or 9.6 kbps) in a 12.5 kHz channelspace - or better (such as 4 slot TDMA as in OpenSky, or possibly P25 phase 2, which effectively achieves 1 voicepath in a 6.25 kHz channelspace). Even though proprietary digital operation is allowed in the allotted channels, ALL operation on the interoperability channels MUST currently be in P25 phase 1. Most of those (all of the "must carry" pairs) will be implemented in conventional. There are some which allow secondary trunked operation, but will be able to drop to conventional whenever there is a mutual aid situation which requires those channel pairs. NOT all regions allow that type of operation in their plans. An LTR system would not be allowed on 700 MHz. Perhaps that's a 900 MHz LTR system someone was thinking about instead?
 
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hiegtx

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902 said:
......... An LTR system would not be allowed on 700 MHz. Perhaps that's a 900 MHz LTR system someone was thinking about instead?
No, this is listed as an analog LTR 700Mhz, although it is Passport. I have not had time to punch it up. Since I see it's Passport, neither the 330 nor the 396 would track it anyway. So it's not going to be a good test as to whther the 330 would track an analog 700mhz system.
 

902

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hiegtx said:
Scooter,
They don't work differently as far as I know, but the 96 & 2096 were not designed with the 700mhz spectrum in mind. It can be accessed to receive by enabling in WIN96. But the firmware apparently will not recognize it as a valid section of spectrum for trunk tracking. I believe someone asked Don Starr this some time back, if it could be handled with a custom table; I think his answer then was no. If anyone could develop a work around, you'd figure he could, and would pass it along <snip>
The difference is that trunking in P25 or Motorola SmartNet/ SmartZone references a table of predesignated channel numbers instead of frequency. These were not defined when the Pro-96 and 2096 firmware was written several years ago. I'm not even sure if the scanner will work with rebanded NPSPAC frequencies once they slide 15 MHz down without a firmware change. Much of the legacy 800 MHz radio equipment that will undergo rebanding can't without new firmware. The UHF and VHF trunked systems which use custom tables or a baseline frequency work in systems which were designed for other bands and transmit some of the frequency-dependent information in their control channel. You can build a table around that.

Now that there are some 700 MHz systems turning up, maybe there could be some experimentation with tables to see if they can work. Maybe, maybe not. I tried scanning the portable 700 MHz system at APCO in Denver last year and could not. I didn't even try this year in Orlando.

The recent release of a DSP flash really took me by surprise. GRE's still dedicated to making this work! That's truly exciting! Maybe this means that an upgrade (it would have to be a factory trip, like the v.1.3 debacle) is possible. The Shack had a dress rehearsal for that a couple of years ago. I sent mine in and it took about 6 months to get it back, but at least they didn't lose it. That's the nice thing about these things - if the RF hardware can accommodate it (and it does), just about anything is possible with software. Sad thing is that the 'no scan on cellular' (which you can't hear anymore anyway) rule most likely required this be another chip swap when it could have been as simple as another flash.

I've got all the confidence in the world in whatever Don Starr says. He knows this product inside and out and I think he's earned trust through the great stuff he's done. Perhaps he'd be able to construct a custom table alias for the 700 MHz frequencies to make it all work through software and it will be as simple as a checkbox :)
 

902

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hiegtx said:
No, this is listed as an analog LTR 700Mhz, although it is Passport. I have not had time to punch it up. Since I see it's Passport, neither the 330 nor the 396 would track it anyway. So it's not going to be a good test as to whther the 330 would track an analog 700mhz system.
INTERESTING!!! Gonna look into this a little deeper, maybe check CAPRAD to see if the channels follow the sort for Texas. THANKS!

Edit: Okay, did some checking - these frequencies are not within the frequency range allotted to public safety. The public safety allotments for Dallas are
found here. The frequencies cited are carved out of TV channel 60. Pro2way leases their frequency resources from Access Spectrum, which is a guard band manager who won those frequencies from the FCC in an auction.

Motorola is making the subscriber equipment out of their CDM 1550-LS (AAM255HF4DP5-N) and HT 1250-LS. Those will not do P25, nor will they work into 800 MHz. They work on 746 - 794 MHz.

We'll see a lot more of these systems built in the guardbands, but they will not be typical of what to expect out of a public safety system.
 
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hiegtx

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902, if it can be done with software, you'd have to figure Don will be the one to do it. Even Radio Shack's rebanding info on the 96 & 2096 refers to using a custom table loaded through Win96.
 

DaveIN

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Radio Shack would have to offer a hardware change to the logic and display board in order to track P25 systems that use 700 MHz and not that many systems are currently using 700 MHz.

It's interesting that they have released a DSP patch, but that is quite a bit different than a hardware upgrade. I think it would more likely be a test of the DSP in the field to prove if something worked for an upcoming model. If Radio Shack was to upgrade the current hardware (firmware) then why would you need the next version. Keep in mind if you upgrade the 96 then you would also need to upgrade the 2096.

Most people want the best quality digital audio, but it won't do much good if it won't track the system.

It's beginning to look like some would buy a P25 digital only scanner just for tracking Motorola digital systems only, with no EDACS or LTR included, just as long as it tracks Motorola systems (including 700 MHz). Maybe there is a market for such a radio that is not a transceiver for less than $500.
 
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rdale

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hiegtx said:
902, if it can be done with software, you'd have to figure Don will be the one to do it. Even Radio Shack's rebanding info on the 96 & 2096 refers to using a custom table loaded through Win96.
700MHz has nothing to do with rebanding, so the custom tables won't help...
 
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