Pro-651: PRO 651 and Palmetto 800 issues

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gosling1

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Greetings! I have a "new to me" PRO 651 digital trunking scanner that I've been unable to receive any of the Palmetto 800 P25-1 talk groups here in the Upstate of South Carolina. Being a Premium member of this site, I purchased ARC 500 and the appropriate programming cable and have used it to "upload" the desired TSYS and their associated talk groups. So far the scanner has not picked up ANY talk groups. Being in a simulcast area, I've tried multiple locations - spanning two different counties. Surely, even if it was a simulcast issue, I would receive SOMETHING?! Is there some specific parameter(s) that need to be set to successfully receive the Palmetto 800 system? Unfortunately, about all that I want to listen to with this scanner is on that system.. Thanks in advance for any assistance.

Daniel / K4DB
 

Ronaldski

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I can almost guarantee simulcast is your issue - multiple towers. Whistlers rarely work well in those situations.
Click under the Site FCC licenses, all the towers. Greenville County Simulcast Site Details (Palmetto 800)

See WS1040/WS1065 vs Simulcast 800 - disregard message 7 as they didn't pursue it.


and

If none of those ideas above help well, you might gain some reception, but likely end up with garbled audio and missed transmissions.

Uniden model’s do much better in your situation, all that are digital, prices lowest to highest:
996P2, 325P2, 436HP, Home Patrol2, 536HP, SDS 100, SDS 200. The SDS' are expensive but are designed to work in the simulcast situations.
 

brian

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The Greenville site is a 5-tower simulcast site and is notoriously difficult to scan with the "older" scanners, specifically the PSR-500 "family" that includes the PRO-651. I have quite a few scanners of that family and they all struggle with the Greenville site.

Try scanning the Hogback or Caesars Head sites instead. Depending on your antenna arrangement and your specific location, you'll likely be able to receive Hogback. These are non-simulcast sites and both carry most common Greenville County talkgroups. They won't carry all of the same talkgroups all of the time like the Greenville site, but hearing something is better than hearing nothing.

Try that and report back.
 

tvengr

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Being a Premium member of this site, I purchased ARC 500 and the appropriate programming cable and have used it to "upload" the desired TSYS and their associated talk groups. So far the scanner has not picked up ANY talk groups.
Simulcast can be a big issue with the Pro-651 and other scanners in the same family. I have ARC500 also. If using the other suggested sites still doesn't work, please attach your ARC500 GR5 programming file and I will check it for problems. You will need to right click on the file and Send to Compressed (zipped) folder to be able to attach it. Click on Attach files and Open the zipped folder.
 

gosling1

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The Greenville site is a 5-tower simulcast site and is notoriously difficult to scan with the "older" scanners, specifically the PSR-500 "family" that includes the PRO-651. I have quite a few scanners of that family and they all struggle with the Greenville site.

Try scanning the Hogback or Caesars Head sites instead. Depending on your antenna arrangement and your specific location, you'll likely be able to receive Hogback. These are non-simulcast sites and both carry most common Greenville County talkgroups. They won't carry all of the same talkgroups all of the time like the Greenville site, but hearing something is better than hearing nothing.

Try that and report back.

Brian -

Many thanks for the info - I had no idea that the simulcast scenario in Greenville County was so bad!

I probably should add that, while I live in Taylors, I work in Pendleton (crazy commute) and I went ahead and programmed the scanner with the Palmetto 800 sites & talkgroups for Anderson County as well - on my 39 mile commute each day, I've got the radio running - never picks up a single talkgroup, etc. between the 2 counties as I go up/down I85, etc.

I've tried to look up the 2 sites as per your recommendation above and cannot find them - any suggestions?

Lastly, I purchased the PRO 651 aka Whistler 1040/PSR500 because my research showed that it was superior in "decoded digital audio" - that being said, would a low end Uniden model such as the one(s) listed above work better? Don't really want to go the SDS route at this time.

Thanks again!

Daniel
 

brian

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Brian -

Many thanks for the info - I had no idea that the simulcast scenario in Greenville County was so bad!

I probably should add that, while I live in Taylors, I work in Pendleton (crazy commute) and I went ahead and programmed the scanner with the Palmetto 800 sites & talkgroups for Anderson County as well - on my 39 mile commute each day, I've got the radio running - never picks up a single talkgroup, etc. between the 2 counties as I go up/down I85, etc.

I've tried to look up the 2 sites as per your recommendation above and cannot find them - any suggestions?

Lastly, I purchased the PRO 651 aka Whistler 1040/PSR500 because my research showed that it was superior in "decoded digital audio" - that being said, would a low end Uniden model such as the one(s) listed above work better? Don't really want to go the SDS route at this time.

Thanks again!

Daniel

Hey Daniel -

If you look here: Palmetto 800 Trunking System, Various, South Carolina - Scanner Frequencies and scroll down in the list of sites, find sites 2-100 and 2-101. Those are the sites I recommend you try. They're a fair ways to the north of where you are, but they have good coverage to their south from the mountains. With my home antenna set-up I can receive them in East Spartanburg. Depending on your antenna set-up they may be hit or miss. Some trial and error and moving the radio around may be necessary. I'm sorry that I can't give you details on how to find the sites in the ACR500 import process, but hopefully that's enough detail to guide you.

The sad news is that Anderson County also runs a simulcast site with 5 or more towers, very similar to Greenville's. So you're going to face the same issue at work in Pendleton as well. There are sites in Pickens (Lookout Mtn) and Clemson that are not simulcast, but I don't think either of those will carry many of the Anderson County talkgroups you're interested in listening to.

One key to remember about simulcast is that it's very location dependent. This means that moving a radio literally an inch or two can sometimes make a huge difference in decoding success. Antenna choice is also a major factor, and sometimes less antenna is better. Engaging the Attenuator setting on the radio can also sometimes help. It seems counter-intuitive, and often none of those remedies turns out to be a cure. As I said, lots of trial and error and patience are required.

I think most will agree that the SDS series scanners are the only scanners currently available that are purposely designed to successfully monitor simulcast systems. It's the unfortunate state of the scanning hobby at this time. I agree those are a big investment for a hobby. But the less expensive radios listed above are not likely to resolve this issue for you. Again, those would be trial and error options that may or may not work better in your specific location and situation.

Keep us posted on your efforts.
 

brian

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Here's a tip on studying simulcast sites. At the very top of the site list on that database page I linked to above, to the right of the statement about Red and Blue control channel frequencies, you'll see two Site Map(s) hyperlinks - one says FCC Callsigns and the other says RR Locations.

Click on RR Locations link first, and zoom that map into the area around the Upstate. You'll see one pin near the center of Greenville County, one near the center of Anderson County, and two just north of Greenville County, one toward the east and one toward the west. Those two northern sites are Hogback and Caesars Head, and are single tower sites. But this shows you how far away they are from you and why reception of them might be hit or miss.

Now go back and click on the FCC Callsigns link and zoom that map into the same location. You should now see many more pins in Greenville and Anderson Counties. Those are the locations of the towers that comprise the simulcast sites in those counties. This, along with the the name of the site including the word "Simulcast" is a clue to locations where you're likely to have decoding challenges. There are many other examples of this same design in other areas of the state and around the country.
 

tvengr

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At my home location, the only scanners that will receive my local Baltimore County MD simulcast system are the SDS100 and SDS200. All others fail miserably, including my Pro-197, the older mobile brother of your scanner. Simulcast distortion is very location specific. Your scanner will probably work only in locations close to a tower when dealing with simulcast sites.
 

gosling1

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OKay - got an update on my predicament - Thanks again to all for the suggestions! Before I left work yesterday afternoon, I reprogrammed the scanner for the Caesar's Head site as well as turning on the attenuator. Tried the "paperclip antenna" in the car as well. Nothing until I was about a mile from the house when it alerted me to a talkgroup transmission - but as quickly as it did, it was "gone" - I didn't have a chance to see the display, so I'm not sure which one it was. Tried the scanner in the house this morning with the "paperclip" again - nothing - no squelch being broken, no received signal(s), etc.

I hadn't mentioned it before, but the "conventional" frequencies reception leaves a lot to be desired - to the point that I've wondered if something is actually wrong with the scanner per se. I plan to go to the local airport this weekend and try aviation "band", using my Uniden BC75XLT alongside for comparison.

Lastly, as tvengr suggested above, I'm attaching my latest ARC500 programming file if someone wants to take a look at it..

Thanks in advance!

Daniel/K4DB
 

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tvengr

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The file you attached is an Excel file. I need the ARC500 GR5 file (.gr5 extension) to see how the scanner is programmed. The GR5 file is the one you send to the scanner to program it.
 

gosling1

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The file you attached is an Excel file. I need the ARC500 GR5 file (.gr5 extension) to see how the scanner is programmed. The GR5 file is the one you send to the scanner to program it, not the Excel CSV file you downloaded.
Opps! My bad :oops:
 

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Ronaldski

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If your using the paperclip and the attenuator you might be killing the signal too much. Simulcast is a trial & error, try one without the other, but what I have seen around here, just the attenuator doesn't work.
Hopefully you recently acquired the radio, my suggestion if so, send it back, honestly. Even if you get it setup to work as said in message 7, to avoid simulcast and is true about using neighboring sites, unless you can get the actual site they use, you'll miss a lot.

Easy for me to say to spend your money, but even if you get it going, you'll most likely be missing calls and garbled audio, ultimately your looking at one of the Unidens I listed. Portables 325P2 - Program yourself, these two, 436HP, SDS100 can do zipcode programming, but also can be setup yourself with favorite lists. HP2 seen enough reports in the forums on simulcast to suggest may want to avoid and also its a bit high cost imo.

Far as reception, push the WX button for NOAA weather as it will always talk to check your reception. Press it again to pickup any other NOAA's in your area.
 

KMG54

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I have the same scanner and worked well in the upstate, TR to be exact. I agree if you have the Ceasers head site, put a Remtronis 800 meg duckie on it, the play with your attenuation. Radio should work fairly well here, mine does. And before the posts start rolling in, I know I spelled it wrong, but ya'll know what I mean.
 

KMG54

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Time permitting I will build a win500 file this weekend. PM me and I will send it to you. I am pretty sure you can still download win500, just don't send money to buy it as it is no longer supported by the author. It does have a 30 day trial.
 

brian

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OKay - got an update on my predicament - Thanks again to all for the suggestions! Before I left work yesterday afternoon, I reprogrammed the scanner for the Caesar's Head site as well as turning on the attenuator. Tried the "paperclip antenna" in the car as well. Nothing until I was about a mile from the house when it alerted me to a talkgroup transmission - but as quickly as it did, it was "gone" - I didn't have a chance to see the display, so I'm not sure which one it was. Tried the scanner in the house this morning with the "paperclip" again - nothing - no squelch being broken, no received signal(s), etc.

I'm sorry you're still struggling with reception in Upstate SC. I'll try to take a look at that program when I have a chance.

But I should have been more specific in my recommendations. Here's some clarification.

Try programming the Hogback and Caesars Head sites instead of the Greenville site. If you're in range of one of those sites, you'll have better success with decode since those sites are no simulcast. If you program the Hogback and/or Caesars Head sites in addition to the Greenville site, then the radio may lock onto the Greenville site anyway, depending in the how you have Multi-site set. That situation won't help your experience.

You may find that programming one of these alternate sites at a time will help you determine which one specifically, if either, you can receive from your location.

The recommendations about engaging the Attenuator and trying different (less efficient) antennas are suggestions to use while monitoring only the Greenville site to combat the simulcast issue. Sometimes, lesser reception helps minimize the effect of the simulcast site. But a less efficient antenna also reduces reception of everything else you're scanning, such as your VHF conventional channels. If you engage the Attenuator in Global mode (GA displayed at the top of the display) then that attenuates (reduces) reception of all objects.

In Taylors, you'll need all the antenna you can get to receive Hogback and/or Caesars Head because you're likely on the margin of reception for those sites in that location. Trying to monitor one or both of those sites with a less efficient antenna, or with the Attenuator engaged, will make your experience worse. If your only other available antenna is the stock antenna that came with the radio, investing in the Remtronix 800MHz antenna is good advice - it will enhance your reception of those more distant sites. An antenna designed for 800MHz is not going to be ideal for VHF reception, so then you have to consider compromises to reception in different bands based on different antennas.

Your experience using the scanner in a vehicle is going to be completely different than stationary at home or at the office. I typically find that using a scanner with an antenna attached directly to the top of the scanner results in poorer reception. The metal cage of the car, or if the scanner is laying flat on the seat, or metal tint on the windows can all degrade reception in the vehicle. Other obstructions like large buildings or metal utility towers, and nearby sources of strong radio signals like commercial wireless towers can all adversely affect reception as you move. So I'd recommend performing your testing from a stationary location first, and see if you can find a reasonably successful solution in that location first. Once you have that conquered, then you can try to figure out the additional challenges while mobile. An antenna mounted outside the vehicle is generally a preferred solution for most hobbyists, but you don't want to go to that trouble until you're sure this radio will at least work at home.

Hopefully, you find the process of this trial and error interesting and enjoyable. Many hobbyists find optimizing the performance of their scanners as entertaining as actually listening to the scanner. However, many other hobbyists just want to listen and not be bothered by the technical challenges. And these challenges are what turn a lot of folks off to the hobby - it's just too much trouble. With some patience and effort, if you're successful, you'll have a great sense of satisfaction and you'll learn a lot in the process.

Keep us updated.
 

KMG54

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OKay - got an update on my predicament - Thanks again to all for the suggestions! Before I left work yesterday afternoon, I reprogrammed the scanner for the Caesar's Head site as well as turning on the attenuator. Tried the "paperclip antenna" in the car as well. Nothing until I was about a mile from the house when it alerted me to a talkgroup transmission - but as quickly as it did, it was "gone" - I didn't have a chance to see the display, so I'm not sure which one it was. Tried the scanner in the house this morning with the "paperclip" again - nothing - no squelch being broken, no received signal(s), etc. Greenville is all digital now. The squelch will not open unless you are receiving a signal. Turn it all the way down and you will not hear static. I will build you a file to try this weekend.
 

brian

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Some suggestions about the configuration you posted in post #11:

- Change the AlphaTags for the the trunked system objects so that you know when system is which. #1 is Caesars Head, #2 is Greenville, #3 is Anderson. I don't think you've created a Trunked system for Hogback yet, and it might be your best bet for success. At this point, it's probably best to keep a single site's frequencies in separate trunked systems because that makes troubleshooting easier.
- Consider changing AlphaTags for scanlists. I'm not familiar with ARC500, so I'm not postive this is correct. But it appears you have talkgroups from the Greenville site trunked system in Scanlist 1, talkgroups from the Caesars Head trunked system in Scanlist 2, talkgroups from the Anderson trunked system in Scanlist 3, and your conventional air frequencies in Scanlist 4. Disable all other scanlists at this point since they are empty.
- You have the attenuator enabled for all three trunked systems. As you test, you'll want to enable and disable the attenuator for each trunked system. That can be done from the keypad, but be sure you know how to do that. Reception of a trunked system with the attenuator enabled will be degraded. That might be good for the simulcast sites, and testing both ways will determine which is better. But make sure the attenuator is disabled for Caesars Head and Hogback.
- Consider adding wildcard talkgroups to your trunked systems. These will allow the scanner to stop on unprogrammed/unidentified talkgroups, which might be desirable. Wildcards can also be useful to test audio decoding while looking for sweet spots.
- You can remove Anderson Co talkgroups from the Greenville site trunked system - the only Anderson talkgroup carried on the Greenville site is the Municipal PD Dispatch talkgroup.
- The only talkgroups you have associated with the Anderson site trunked system are SCHP Troop 3 talkgroups. You probably want to add the Anderson County talkgroups to that trunked system and Scanlist #3.
- You don't have any SCHP talkgroups associated with the Greenville site trunked system or the Caesars Head trunked system. Those talkgroups are pretty active on both sites and you probably want to listen to them.

I uploaded your file to my radio and then read it back into ACR500 so that I could see the object IDs it assigns. I don't know if your object IDs will be the same, but the trunked system object for the Caesars Head site is 43, Greenville is 53 and Anderson is 63. You can use these object IDs to easily access the trunked system object from the radio keypad so you can change settings.

Read about and use the Analyze feature. That's very helpful when testing different antennas and locations to find a sweet spot for good decode. When analyzing the active control channel, it will show you a real time decoding percentage - higher is better.

Hope that helps. Keep us posted on your progress.
 

KMG54

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He is local, just renewed my subscription so I can build a file for him. I love this hobby and love helping people. Love this site also, by the way. And I not asking for a dime, just happy to getting him set up.
 
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KMG54

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Larry tought me lot's of tricks with this scanner. RIP, he said ditch the filters and use this list and it worked. All sites from Spartanburg to Anderson come in clear. You need o use the keypad to pick your list and what you want to hear, but programmed correctly the simulcast is a minimum.
 

tvengr

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I set up the file so that you can scan by site. You can set the attenuator individually for each of the 5 sites. There is a separate system for each of the sites. Digital audio AGC is off. The AGC action can add to garbled audio problems. Scan lists as follows:
1. P800 Greenville
2. P800 Hogback Mtn
3. P800 CaesarsHead
4. P800 Anderson
5. P800 Spartanburg
6. GC Conventional
Save the attached zipped file to your computer and extract. Open the extracted file with ARC500 and Upload to Scanner.
 

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