Wrong. Webster Groves 2024 was the move-up company in-quarters at Affton House 1, and was the closest/first-in company.... not 1814 like you claim. East Central was contacted requesting 1814, who was in-quarters in their own engine house... as well as keeping them updated that a truck they usually dispatch for was running a call incase they issue department report numbers, Chiefs keep updated, etc.
Problems compunding at Central County Dispatch
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Wrong. Webster Groves 2024 was the move-up company in-quarters at Affton House 1, and was the closest/first-in company.... not 1814 like you claim. East Central was contacted requesting 1814, who was in-quarters in their own engine house... as well as keeping them updated that a truck they usually dispatch for was running a call incase they issue department report numbers, Chiefs keep updated, etc.
WuLabsWuTecH
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The way our county has it structured here in Ohio has its own issues, but it wasn't until I went to school out in STL that I realized how lucky I had it.
Most of our departments in the county have their 911 PSAP set to a central fire alarm office. Everything is on what is known as "Automatic Aid" with this FAO. No matter where the run is, the closest unit goes. This become key because we have a lot of townships and cities that are very oddly shaped. Once you mark in service, you are added to the automatic aid queue and remain in that queue with GPS following you. Each fire chief still has say over what each run card says, but instead of specifying units, all they do is specify "1 engine, 1 rescue, 2 medics" and whomever is closest goes. The only exception is for medic companies which if they are returning from the hospital, are not added to the queue until they mark either back in district or back in quarters. (For a Level 1 call such as arrest, shooting, unconscious, etc, they are still pulled if they are the closest, but for everything else, they are not just because they would never make it back out to their district otherwise.)
There are a few suburbs that have lots of money that have retained their dispatching centers but they all have access to each others real-time unit status. The only thing they don't get is GPS data. So Suburb Fire Dispatch can quickly pull up the run card for, say, a working fire, and look over to another screen to see which units are closest and available. They also have a dedicated talkgroup on the radio that only dispatchers can access to talk to each other, as well as an intercom system (connected either by fiber or frame relay, but it is not telephone).
It sounds like STL right now is more of a mess than it was 5 years ago when (almost) everyone had their own dispatcher, but it's hard to convince people to give up control of something they currently have control over...
Most of our departments in the county have their 911 PSAP set to a central fire alarm office. Everything is on what is known as "Automatic Aid" with this FAO. No matter where the run is, the closest unit goes. This become key because we have a lot of townships and cities that are very oddly shaped. Once you mark in service, you are added to the automatic aid queue and remain in that queue with GPS following you. Each fire chief still has say over what each run card says, but instead of specifying units, all they do is specify "1 engine, 1 rescue, 2 medics" and whomever is closest goes. The only exception is for medic companies which if they are returning from the hospital, are not added to the queue until they mark either back in district or back in quarters. (For a Level 1 call such as arrest, shooting, unconscious, etc, they are still pulled if they are the closest, but for everything else, they are not just because they would never make it back out to their district otherwise.)
There are a few suburbs that have lots of money that have retained their dispatching centers but they all have access to each others real-time unit status. The only thing they don't get is GPS data. So Suburb Fire Dispatch can quickly pull up the run card for, say, a working fire, and look over to another screen to see which units are closest and available. They also have a dedicated talkgroup on the radio that only dispatchers can access to talk to each other, as well as an intercom system (connected either by fiber or frame relay, but it is not telephone).
It sounds like STL right now is more of a mess than it was 5 years ago when (almost) everyone had their own dispatcher, but it's hard to convince people to give up control of something they currently have control over...
I don't have a tape to listen to my supposed wrong error djm448 like you as I suspect you are a dispatcher with Central County. From what I have heard many firefighters and Chief Officers are fed up with Central County and would like to leave that agency and go the new St Louis County Police dispatch center when it becomes operational at the new EOC in early summer. If that would occur dispatches for fire and ems would be faster, cheaper and more accurate. St Louis County Police do an outstanding job dispatching officers involving life and death situations while helping them to stay safe in the process.
Unfortunately the governing board of Central County deadlocked on a 3 to 3 vote to enter discussions with St Louis County about the merger of dispatch services. Its not the end as I still see action in the near future. In the meantime hopefully dispatches will get better. They have some really good people with the knowledge to do it so management take their handcuffs off and let them get the job done right.
shelleys1
Member
Re: St. Louis County Dispatching Fire
I've discussed this at County for a while. They didn't have any intention of dispatching Fire/EMS! The reason for this (when I last talked to them) is because Fire/EMS are union and County is not. Having union and non-union in the same dispatching facility won't work.
I'm now down in Austin, Texas (permanently) and haven't spoken to anyone at the EOC since we got here but I will soon. If anything has changed I'll let you know.
Shell
I've discussed this at County for a while. They didn't have any intention of dispatching Fire/EMS! The reason for this (when I last talked to them) is because Fire/EMS are union and County is not. Having union and non-union in the same dispatching facility won't work.
I'm now down in Austin, Texas (permanently) and haven't spoken to anyone at the EOC since we got here but I will soon. If anything has changed I'll let you know.
Shell
WuLabsWuTecH
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God forbid unions and non-unions personnel have to work together!
Another example of how the fire service is shooting ourselves (and our brothers) in the foot with Union. They are great for certain things, but they are also really good at holding up progress including improving safety.
The one striking example I have in my head is one night on a WashU student going in and out of consciousness. Yes, the on campus first responders dragged their feet a lot and they certainly hold the blame for some of the delay, but when they finally called WashU dispatch for a medic, it took another 45 minutes to get the medic to the scene. A lot of that time was spent by the dispatcher calling different dispatchers to find a medic that was free. When the medic finally got dispatched, they had no idea where to go. WashU's campus buildings do not have street addresses for the most part and are identified by Colors and Numbers known only to a handful of people (Residential Staff, Emergency Management, Police, and the only students that probably even know these colors and numbers exist are the RAs--which is how I knew). So this medic from far away gets dispatched to Red-42 on the campus of WashU and has no idea where to go so they sit at 1 Brookings Drive (the main address of the university) staring at a campus map trying to find Red-42. Of course it's not published on the maps, but a WUPD officer driving by happened to find them and directed them to the scene. Total time from initial call to 1st medic on scene with patient was almost 1 hour and 20 minutes. And I was probably the only person in the county (who just happened to have a scanner on) that understood what was actually happening.
Such lack of pre-plan is unimaginable in the area I live in now. While we're not required to know the maps for anything outside of our district for the map test, we are required to know how to find the information for mutual aid. The big airport is 2 counties over, and I honestly couldn't tell you where the Fire/EMS access points are to it, but know that there is either a paper book or a computer map that will tell me exactly where to go if we're say, dispatched to "Terminal 1, Gate 20; use gate Green-5 for airport access."
Another example of how the fire service is shooting ourselves (and our brothers) in the foot with Union. They are great for certain things, but they are also really good at holding up progress including improving safety.
The one striking example I have in my head is one night on a WashU student going in and out of consciousness. Yes, the on campus first responders dragged their feet a lot and they certainly hold the blame for some of the delay, but when they finally called WashU dispatch for a medic, it took another 45 minutes to get the medic to the scene. A lot of that time was spent by the dispatcher calling different dispatchers to find a medic that was free. When the medic finally got dispatched, they had no idea where to go. WashU's campus buildings do not have street addresses for the most part and are identified by Colors and Numbers known only to a handful of people (Residential Staff, Emergency Management, Police, and the only students that probably even know these colors and numbers exist are the RAs--which is how I knew). So this medic from far away gets dispatched to Red-42 on the campus of WashU and has no idea where to go so they sit at 1 Brookings Drive (the main address of the university) staring at a campus map trying to find Red-42. Of course it's not published on the maps, but a WUPD officer driving by happened to find them and directed them to the scene. Total time from initial call to 1st medic on scene with patient was almost 1 hour and 20 minutes. And I was probably the only person in the county (who just happened to have a scanner on) that understood what was actually happening.
Such lack of pre-plan is unimaginable in the area I live in now. While we're not required to know the maps for anything outside of our district for the map test, we are required to know how to find the information for mutual aid. The big airport is 2 counties over, and I honestly couldn't tell you where the Fire/EMS access points are to it, but know that there is either a paper book or a computer map that will tell me exactly where to go if we're say, dispatched to "Terminal 1, Gate 20; use gate Green-5 for airport access."
There is no Red-42 on the main campus or the south forty
WuLabsWuTecH
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Do you know how many years it's been since I listened to a scanner down there and how many years it's been since I was on student staff? All I remember is that south 40 is red and north side is purple. Maybe it was 142? But you're missing the point, other than the campus responders massively screwing up, there was still a looooong delay in response because of lack of interoperability.
Washington U
A long response time is nothing new at Wash. U. The following story from decades ago comes second hand by way of my father who worked at WU. It explains why Washington U. has a police force. There was a holdup at Brookings Hall. Since most of the main campus is in unincorporated St. Louis County, County Police was called. Since County Police doesn't patrol anywhere very near Wash. U. (municipalities around there have their own police), it took about 45 minutes for the police to arrive. After that incident, the school decided that a such long response time was unacceptable and established the certified Washington U. Police (as opposed to having campus security). However, since a portion of the campus is in the City of St. Louis and everything south of Forsyth, including the South 40, is in Clayton and everything that might be north of Millbrook or west of Big Bend is in University City, there are still multiple jurisdictions involved. Amazing, isn't it?
And Wash. U. has no fire department (although as I understand they do have an agreement with Clayton covering the unincorparated part of the campus). All I know about fire and EMS response to WU, and of the various zones on campus, is what I can surmise from scanner traffic, which I've listened to off and on for a long time. I have no idea what zone is where at Wash U (I'm much more familiar with building names). I know that Clayton, then Richmond Heights are first to respond and I know there are a good number of calls that turn out to be nothing (which I guess should be expected).
Having so many departments and dispatchers involved does seem to add to response time in many cases. Having one dispacher call for a mutual aid response only to be told by another dispather that the unit requested in not available doesn't seem to be a very efficient system.
In emergency situations things can be confusing enough. Consider a situation in which weather conditions cause multiple accidents at different locations very close to each other (I have in mind a real incident). Police units request ambulances (for three accidents which are all literally within a few hundred yards of a firehouse). Two ambulances are dispatched (one from the nearby firehouse). One ambulance is canceled but the dispatcher cancels the wrong ambulance (listening to the scanner, I realized the mistake). On the way back to the firehouse, the canceled ambulance comes upon yet another accident and stops. The police at one of the accidents is wondering where the ambulance is and calls in, and is informed that the ambulance was canceled. No, he says, he needs an ambulance. But by now, the ambulance that had first been sent to another scene, then canceled, has stopped at yet another accident and is unavailable. So a mutual aid ambulance still has to be located and dispatched. The ambulance from the closest firehouse had never been more than a few hundred yards from where it was needed. I know I'm rambling but that was messed up. It wasn't caused by having multiple jurisdictions; for the most part, only one jursidiction was involved. But with multiple accidents at the same time, things can get confusing.
A long response time is nothing new at Wash. U. The following story from decades ago comes second hand by way of my father who worked at WU. It explains why Washington U. has a police force. There was a holdup at Brookings Hall. Since most of the main campus is in unincorporated St. Louis County, County Police was called. Since County Police doesn't patrol anywhere very near Wash. U. (municipalities around there have their own police), it took about 45 minutes for the police to arrive. After that incident, the school decided that a such long response time was unacceptable and established the certified Washington U. Police (as opposed to having campus security). However, since a portion of the campus is in the City of St. Louis and everything south of Forsyth, including the South 40, is in Clayton and everything that might be north of Millbrook or west of Big Bend is in University City, there are still multiple jurisdictions involved. Amazing, isn't it?
And Wash. U. has no fire department (although as I understand they do have an agreement with Clayton covering the unincorparated part of the campus). All I know about fire and EMS response to WU, and of the various zones on campus, is what I can surmise from scanner traffic, which I've listened to off and on for a long time. I have no idea what zone is where at Wash U (I'm much more familiar with building names). I know that Clayton, then Richmond Heights are first to respond and I know there are a good number of calls that turn out to be nothing (which I guess should be expected).
Having so many departments and dispatchers involved does seem to add to response time in many cases. Having one dispacher call for a mutual aid response only to be told by another dispather that the unit requested in not available doesn't seem to be a very efficient system.
In emergency situations things can be confusing enough. Consider a situation in which weather conditions cause multiple accidents at different locations very close to each other (I have in mind a real incident). Police units request ambulances (for three accidents which are all literally within a few hundred yards of a firehouse). Two ambulances are dispatched (one from the nearby firehouse). One ambulance is canceled but the dispatcher cancels the wrong ambulance (listening to the scanner, I realized the mistake). On the way back to the firehouse, the canceled ambulance comes upon yet another accident and stops. The police at one of the accidents is wondering where the ambulance is and calls in, and is informed that the ambulance was canceled. No, he says, he needs an ambulance. But by now, the ambulance that had first been sent to another scene, then canceled, has stopped at yet another accident and is unavailable. So a mutual aid ambulance still has to be located and dispatched. The ambulance from the closest firehouse had never been more than a few hundred yards from where it was needed. I know I'm rambling but that was messed up. It wasn't caused by having multiple jurisdictions; for the most part, only one jursidiction was involved. But with multiple accidents at the same time, things can get confusing.
Having so many departments and dispatchers involved does seem to add to response time in many cases. Having one dispacher call for a mutual aid response only to be told by another dispather that the unit requested in not available doesn't seem to be a very efficient system.
I agree completely. But I have to back up what Central County is trying to do. (yes I hate myself for it) "So many dispatchers--so many departments-- doesn't seem to be a very efficient system." Central County is trying to fix that, sort of. Listening to East Central/U. City/SLFD/Brentwood etc is nerve racking to say the least. And error prone in it's own way. I work for the contracted EMS company for a few of those departments. And in our units we try to monitor ALL of those departments on a VHF radio that is set up like a scanner. We hope to get a little jump start on any call that comes our way. I am shocked that there aren't more errors amongst all of us.
There are many ways to make the system better but I am afraid that politics are locked in too hard for it to be fixed properly. My thoughts. My opinion.
Happy scanning everyone.
I agree completely. But I have to back up what Central County is trying to do. (yes I hate myself for it) "So many dispatchers--so many departments-- doesn't seem to be a very efficient system." Central County is trying to fix that, sort of. Listening to East Central/U. City/SLFD/Brentwood etc is nerve racking to say the least. And error prone in it's own way. I work for the contracted EMS company for a few of those departments. And in our units we try to monitor ALL of those departments on a VHF radio that is set up like a scanner. We hope to get a little jump start on any call that comes our way. I am shocked that there aren't more errors amongst all of us.
There are many ways to make the system better but I am afraid that politics are locked in too hard for it to be fixed properly. My thoughts. My opinion.
Happy scanning everyone.
WuLabsWuTecH
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The story you have about WashU seems right. I have also only heard the story anecdotally passed down (through the Chief of Police when I was in school there) but that is why there is a splintered system of Police, WUSM-PS (Protective Services), WashU Security, and Contracted Security. Only the Police and WUSM-PS can carry on campus, but the other ones still serve important roles and going to all Police would be cost prohibitive (have you seen the salaries those guys pull?!?).
I didn't realize the contract that WashU had was with Clayton and Richmond Heights. I was under the impression that it was with Clayton and UCity. Clayton is first in on everything on Danforth Campus and West Campus (even the parts of the campus in UCity, St. Louis City Proper, and Unincorporated St. Louis County) and second in on everything else non-medical campus, and UCity was first in on the Music Annex, North Campus, and University owned properties north of Forest Park Parkway and second in on everything else (also excluding medical campus).
The WashU zone system is a GREAT system if you work within the system. On staff there, at one point in time, I knew most of the zones. I didn't know the numbers per se, but that wasn't important. All of emergency, facilities, and planning is based on zones. So if a student's dorm room springs a leak at 3AM, I know to pull the Red Zone chart if their room is on the north side and to pull the Purple Zone call tree if their room is on the South 40. But we were never taught numbers since once you call the person on the call list, telling them what building you were in was enough for them to find you. The numbers are only useful for buildings with similar names (Brooking Hall vs Brookings House. Danforth House vs Danforth Hall vs Danforth University Center etc.)
But for people not in the system, it's useless. And since maps aren't readily available to all departments, it makes it that much worse.
The other problem with WashU dispatching is that they are slow to call for help. Not only are the campus first responders slow to call for help* (see sidenote below) when they need it, but the University knows that with the number of false alarms they hold the run for a certain amount of time before calling another dispatcher to get fire units dispatched in hopes that a police or security officer will get on scene and cancel the alarm before they sent fire units. I was told that they had to pay the FD per run, but I'm never saw documentation to support that.
I lost all faith in our dispatching when one night I called WUPD's emergency number to get an engine and a medic for a student who was pretty badly injured and it was obvious it was going to be a transport incident. Around where I grew up, if an off-duty firefighter calls in for equipment, they still send the card, but they make sure to do everything in their power to send the equipment that the FF requests even if it's not on the card. Since I don't know the run cards in STL barely having worked in that system, I called for an Engine and a Medic just to be safe since the student was going to be immobile and we'd need the extra manpower. (yeah, yeah, we call them pumpers in STL) The Dispatcher told me that she'd call for an Engine and a Medic but didn't actually call for one until 2 tones for the campus first responders were dropped, they got on scene, and dilly-dallied around for 20 minutes, and then called for a medic. I was livid that 1) an engine and a medic weren't called for and 2) that I was specifically told they would be dispatched. The LT on scene that night told me to call 911 or their dispatching office direct in the future and that's what I did from then on out. As required by the university, I would still call WUPD, but only after I called Clayton either via 911, their alternate phone, or from campus dialing 9-911. I also had a copy of the zone map on my smartphone for that reason.
It took WUPD about a year and a half to figure out who was calling 911 direct and getting all sorts of units on scenes and after they figured it out, my boss said they had contemplated ordering me not to do it while on the job (obviously they couldn't order me not to call 911 when off the job) but they decided the liability of telling a staff member they weren't allowed to call 911 direct was too high. That saved their butts the day the basement of Lopata House caught fire and the fire alarms failed to sound upon being pulled. (Chief 3200 was unsure of whether to pat me on the back for calling them direct and telling dispatch they didn't have an all-clear, or whether to scold me for re-entering the building without bunker gear, but he figured me coughing up a lung would teach me a lesson enough...)
*I have nothing against the campus first responders who are probably some of the brightest FRs and EMTs in the state, but they just aren't very good though no fault of their own. For some inexplicable reason, WashU keeps 60 guys on staff for a run district that gets just a couple of runs a week which leads to no one getting any experience. I was talking to a friend of mine on the FR squad who said I easily got more runs in one 24 hours shift at home than most of their members got in a semester. And so it is this lack of experience that often contributes to them delaying calling for Clayton
I didn't realize the contract that WashU had was with Clayton and Richmond Heights. I was under the impression that it was with Clayton and UCity. Clayton is first in on everything on Danforth Campus and West Campus (even the parts of the campus in UCity, St. Louis City Proper, and Unincorporated St. Louis County) and second in on everything else non-medical campus, and UCity was first in on the Music Annex, North Campus, and University owned properties north of Forest Park Parkway and second in on everything else (also excluding medical campus).
The WashU zone system is a GREAT system if you work within the system. On staff there, at one point in time, I knew most of the zones. I didn't know the numbers per se, but that wasn't important. All of emergency, facilities, and planning is based on zones. So if a student's dorm room springs a leak at 3AM, I know to pull the Red Zone chart if their room is on the north side and to pull the Purple Zone call tree if their room is on the South 40. But we were never taught numbers since once you call the person on the call list, telling them what building you were in was enough for them to find you. The numbers are only useful for buildings with similar names (Brooking Hall vs Brookings House. Danforth House vs Danforth Hall vs Danforth University Center etc.)
But for people not in the system, it's useless. And since maps aren't readily available to all departments, it makes it that much worse.
The other problem with WashU dispatching is that they are slow to call for help. Not only are the campus first responders slow to call for help* (see sidenote below) when they need it, but the University knows that with the number of false alarms they hold the run for a certain amount of time before calling another dispatcher to get fire units dispatched in hopes that a police or security officer will get on scene and cancel the alarm before they sent fire units. I was told that they had to pay the FD per run, but I'm never saw documentation to support that.
I lost all faith in our dispatching when one night I called WUPD's emergency number to get an engine and a medic for a student who was pretty badly injured and it was obvious it was going to be a transport incident. Around where I grew up, if an off-duty firefighter calls in for equipment, they still send the card, but they make sure to do everything in their power to send the equipment that the FF requests even if it's not on the card. Since I don't know the run cards in STL barely having worked in that system, I called for an Engine and a Medic just to be safe since the student was going to be immobile and we'd need the extra manpower. (yeah, yeah, we call them pumpers in STL) The Dispatcher told me that she'd call for an Engine and a Medic but didn't actually call for one until 2 tones for the campus first responders were dropped, they got on scene, and dilly-dallied around for 20 minutes, and then called for a medic. I was livid that 1) an engine and a medic weren't called for and 2) that I was specifically told they would be dispatched. The LT on scene that night told me to call 911 or their dispatching office direct in the future and that's what I did from then on out. As required by the university, I would still call WUPD, but only after I called Clayton either via 911, their alternate phone, or from campus dialing 9-911. I also had a copy of the zone map on my smartphone for that reason.
It took WUPD about a year and a half to figure out who was calling 911 direct and getting all sorts of units on scenes and after they figured it out, my boss said they had contemplated ordering me not to do it while on the job (obviously they couldn't order me not to call 911 when off the job) but they decided the liability of telling a staff member they weren't allowed to call 911 direct was too high. That saved their butts the day the basement of Lopata House caught fire and the fire alarms failed to sound upon being pulled. (Chief 3200 was unsure of whether to pat me on the back for calling them direct and telling dispatch they didn't have an all-clear, or whether to scold me for re-entering the building without bunker gear, but he figured me coughing up a lung would teach me a lesson enough...)
*I have nothing against the campus first responders who are probably some of the brightest FRs and EMTs in the state, but they just aren't very good though no fault of their own. For some inexplicable reason, WashU keeps 60 guys on staff for a run district that gets just a couple of runs a week which leads to no one getting any experience. I was talking to a friend of mine on the FR squad who said I easily got more runs in one 24 hours shift at home than most of their members got in a semester. And so it is this lack of experience that often contributes to them delaying calling for Clayton
Wash U contracts fire protection to Clayton for anything in the non-incorporated portions of the Campus. This obviously includes most of the main campus. Clayton covers the south forty and west campus, it is in the city limits of Clayton. UCity and St. Louis city cover the areas of the campus that are in their city's. Even a portion of the main campus (some silver buildings) are in the city. Their is only one contract for fire protection. If Wash U calls East Central for a fire alarm, it is the responsibility of East Central (Clayton) to find an appropriate response if trucks are unavailable. Part of having contracted fire protection is allowing the FD to organize a proper response. Wash U has 0 say in who, what, or how many apparatus come to ANY call at Wash U.
I can assure you that every department that has even a small potential to run to Wash U has the Maps
This is not true. WashU dispatchers, in my opinion, are rather quick and quite professional. They use to have some issues but have gotten a lot better. EST (first responders) have also come a long way. They used to call Clayton for everything even minor injuries which not only drained Clayton but all the mutual aid around there. Give them some credit as things aren't as bad as they used to be. There is no way Wash U dispatchers can "hold" a call and hope for a cancel. In fact they contact East Central before their own cops. And Wash U pays a lump contract to Clayton, it's not per run.
There is a system in place for a reason. What if every 911 center would send whatever the caller asked for? They don't know who you are. Wash U dispatchers CANNOT ask for any piece of equipment specifically. They tell the appropriate agency what it is, and then that dispatch center notifies the appropriate equipment.
And if they weren't there Clayton and Clayton's mutual aid would be running EVERY EMS call at the campus regardless of severity.
WuLabsWuTecH
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It sounds like the system has come a long way since the mid to late 2000's. When I was there, often fire alarms would come and go without any fire apparatus on scene. But like I said, someone in ResLife and Police during a meeting said they paid per run (though they weren't very high up so it was probably someone who was misinformed).
Most 911 PSAPs will honor an off-duty firefighter/medic's request for equipment if they can. It makes sense now why WashU PD couldn't--since they weren't dispatching the units themselves, with the way you described their contract setup, they probably already have predetermined run cards that WUPD Dispatch can't alter on the go. I never had issues with asking East Central to send extra manpower if I thought it was going to be needed. I've also never had any issues asking the dispatchers around the volunteer FD I run on now to send certain equipment that I think might be needed. I remember one night that my 'spidey sense" just told me with the info the dispatcher was giving us, even though it was only called in as an ill person and an unresponsive, that it was going to be a Haz-mat mass casualty incident so I started calling for additional units even before anyone got there for scene size up. Sometimes, you can just tell. Other times, you get there as a bystander or just as a volunteer before the apparatus does and you know what you'll likely need. And it's nice to have dispatchers that will honor that request.
Unless things have changed, I understand that the WashU guys were only FR/BLS whereas Clayton ran at the ACLS Level (I understand that Missouri has since gotten intermediates but I actually have no idea what the levels are called now--some states use BLS/ILS/ALS whereas other use BLS/ALS/ACLS). If that's still the case, plus the fact that the WashU guys can't transport, why isn't it the case that Clayton/Clayton's mutual aid is running to every medical call on campus? For a sick case or other BLS run, have them come in on a non-emergency response, for an ILS/ALS case or above come in on a hot response. Around here, we have 4 stations that have fire apparatus but only one of them has EMS apparatus. For ANYTHING that's EMS related and not in the main station's district, we send the engine as a FR (if available) and then send the BLS Squad, ALS Squad, or ACLS Medic depending on the nature of the call. For some calls, the BLS squad doesn't go "hot." But there is always a transport unit enroute with the full set of equipment should you need it. You never truly know what you are getting into until you get there...
Most 911 PSAPs will honor an off-duty firefighter/medic's request for equipment if they can. It makes sense now why WashU PD couldn't--since they weren't dispatching the units themselves, with the way you described their contract setup, they probably already have predetermined run cards that WUPD Dispatch can't alter on the go. I never had issues with asking East Central to send extra manpower if I thought it was going to be needed. I've also never had any issues asking the dispatchers around the volunteer FD I run on now to send certain equipment that I think might be needed. I remember one night that my 'spidey sense" just told me with the info the dispatcher was giving us, even though it was only called in as an ill person and an unresponsive, that it was going to be a Haz-mat mass casualty incident so I started calling for additional units even before anyone got there for scene size up. Sometimes, you can just tell. Other times, you get there as a bystander or just as a volunteer before the apparatus does and you know what you'll likely need. And it's nice to have dispatchers that will honor that request.
Unless things have changed, I understand that the WashU guys were only FR/BLS whereas Clayton ran at the ACLS Level (I understand that Missouri has since gotten intermediates but I actually have no idea what the levels are called now--some states use BLS/ILS/ALS whereas other use BLS/ALS/ACLS). If that's still the case, plus the fact that the WashU guys can't transport, why isn't it the case that Clayton/Clayton's mutual aid is running to every medical call on campus? For a sick case or other BLS run, have them come in on a non-emergency response, for an ILS/ALS case or above come in on a hot response. Around here, we have 4 stations that have fire apparatus but only one of them has EMS apparatus. For ANYTHING that's EMS related and not in the main station's district, we send the engine as a FR (if available) and then send the BLS Squad, ALS Squad, or ACLS Medic depending on the nature of the call. For some calls, the BLS squad doesn't go "hot." But there is always a transport unit enroute with the full set of equipment should you need it. You never truly know what you are getting into until you get there...
This is an article that appeared in newsweek.com magazine by Jim Erickson recently. Judge for yourselves if what I was saying wasn't true. The possibility of St Louis Co PD dispatching some fire and ems has been going on a lot longer than just recently but the hang up was was the completion of the new EEOC and again I will say that St Louis County PD would do a much better and cheaper job than Central County Dispatch.
Emergency dispatching services continue to be topic of discussion across St. Louis County
If it weren’t for the fact that lives, as well as tax dollars, are involved, the ongoing saga of what the fate of Central County Emergency 911 will be could be likened to a soap opera. Its storyline certainly has enough twists and turns.
The latest development was a 3-3 vote and therefore the defeat of a resolution that the CCE board form a special committee to consider a business relationship on dispatching services with the St. Louis County Emergency Communications Commission.
The decision was one of number of votes taken during a more than three-hour, closed-door session at a March 12 special board meeting. In a brief question-answer session after that and other decisions were announced, several board members from both the yea and nay sides of the resolution emphasized that CCE employees are doing an exceptional job.
At an earlier meeting, employees had expressed concerns about their jobs due to questions and issues being raised about the dispatch center’s future.
CCE receives 911 calls for fire and emergency medical help for most of St. Louis County and parts of adjoining counties. It then dispatches personnel and equipment from the fire and ambulance operations that use its services.
During the past 15 months, the Ellisville-based operation has spent heavily to add equipment, communication links and personnel to handle dispatching duties formerly provided by financially troubled centers in the north and south county areas – an expansion projected to quadruple CCE’s emergency call volume.
Meanwhile, the county ECC has been continuing work on what’s now a nearly complete communications center in Ohlendorf Park West, on Hanna Road south of Big Bend Road in West County. Although intended primarily for handling police-related 911 calls and with county and ECC officials earlier stating no interest in getting into the fire and emergency medical dispatching business, that direction now appears to be changing.
Garry Earls, St. Louis County’s chief operating officer and a member of the ECC, recently said that sooner or later the new operation will have a fire and EMS dispatching capability. There are other small dispatch operations in the multi-county, bi-state area the ECC covers that are likely to turn to the ECC facility in order to provide a higher quality service, he explained.
“But we’re not marketing that (fire and EMS dispatching) service now and we don’t want to put anyone out of business,” Earls affirmed.
Regardless, three CCE user-owners – the Creve Coeur, Maryland Heights and West County EMS and fire protection districts – have approved resolutions stating their intent to consider having dispatch services provided by the new ECC operation.
The resolutions also say the districts’ severance with CCE hinges on whether differences between its user-owners can be resolved. At various times, CCE governance and management issues have been cited as reasons for the discord.
Two other CCE user-owners – Metro West Fire Protection District and Meramec Ambulance District – also have asked to withdraw their ownership status, but have indicated no plans to seek dispatching services elsewhere.
David Casey and Tim Flora, who represent Meramec and Metro West, respectively, on the CCE board joined with joined with Jane Cunningham, who represents the Monarch Fire Protection District, in opposing the resolution calling for the special committee. Favoring the motion were David Cobb, Tom Carter and Cathy Keeler, who represent West County, Maryland Heights and Creve Coeur on the board.
Earls said the county has made no proposals to CCE.
“Right now, we’re just sitting and waiting to see what may happen,” he said.
However, according to wording in the defeated resolution, ECC representatives approached CCE about forming a committee to consider a business relationship for dispatching services. The resolution does not identify the individuals involved.
While the ECC and St. Louis County work closely together and Earls’ responsibilities place him in both camps, the commission is a separate entity chaired by retired Florissant Police Chief Bill Karabas. Two of the seven ECC members are Jack Trout and Greg Brown, chiefs of the Frontenac Fire Department and Eureka Fire Protection District, respectively. Both the Frontenac and Eureka operations use CCE’s dispatching services.
Although the resolution failed, several CCE board members, including Casey and Cunningham who opposed it, stated their willingness to consider any formal proposal the county and/or the ECC might want to present.
Cunningham expressed a similar sentiment in remarks she made to the St. Louis County Council the day before the CCE board meeting. However, she also questioned why “heavy pressure” was being placed on CCE to adopt the resolution and said there was no reason for the ECC to duplicate fire and emergency medical dispatching services that the Ellisville center already is providing and “which is working marvelously well.”
She also questioned any suggestion that the CCE should be closed and used only as a backup. The ECC facility is “mainly above ground in tornado alley” while the Central County operation is underground and built to withstand the most severe tornados, she observed.
Cunningham called for an investigation into why the CCE board was being pressured to approve the resolution before the upcoming elections when the county executive position will be on the ballot.
In remarks before the CCE board meeting, West County’s Cobb said he didn’t believe the resolution was designed to force anything. Instead, he interpreted it as calling for a consensus on the idea of discussing various options for CCE’s future.
“Any decision beyond that would be premature at this point,” Cobb observed. “We’re simply at the information-gathering stage. And I think we (the CCE board) owe it to the taxpayers and the fire and ambulance operations we serve to look at all the facts and consider all the options before we make any kind of ultimate decision.”
At the board meeting, Cobb also agreed that CCE employees are doing a good job. But he advised against adopting a view that the operation is “the best.”
“When any business adopts the attitude that it’s the best, it is less likely to look for ways to improve. And there always will be ways to improve,” he observed.
Other actions taken during the closed meeting and announced when the public session resumed involved a variety of hiring and vendor contract issues. One of those, approved on a unanimous vote, called for hiring four additional dispatchers to replace two persons who recently resigned and two others to bring staffing up to an industry-recommended level.
The staffing issue had been debated and tabled earlier due to budget concerns and questions about the need for more personnel.
Emergency dispatching services continue to be topic of discussion across St. Louis County
If it weren’t for the fact that lives, as well as tax dollars, are involved, the ongoing saga of what the fate of Central County Emergency 911 will be could be likened to a soap opera. Its storyline certainly has enough twists and turns.
The latest development was a 3-3 vote and therefore the defeat of a resolution that the CCE board form a special committee to consider a business relationship on dispatching services with the St. Louis County Emergency Communications Commission.
The decision was one of number of votes taken during a more than three-hour, closed-door session at a March 12 special board meeting. In a brief question-answer session after that and other decisions were announced, several board members from both the yea and nay sides of the resolution emphasized that CCE employees are doing an exceptional job.
At an earlier meeting, employees had expressed concerns about their jobs due to questions and issues being raised about the dispatch center’s future.
CCE receives 911 calls for fire and emergency medical help for most of St. Louis County and parts of adjoining counties. It then dispatches personnel and equipment from the fire and ambulance operations that use its services.
During the past 15 months, the Ellisville-based operation has spent heavily to add equipment, communication links and personnel to handle dispatching duties formerly provided by financially troubled centers in the north and south county areas – an expansion projected to quadruple CCE’s emergency call volume.
Meanwhile, the county ECC has been continuing work on what’s now a nearly complete communications center in Ohlendorf Park West, on Hanna Road south of Big Bend Road in West County. Although intended primarily for handling police-related 911 calls and with county and ECC officials earlier stating no interest in getting into the fire and emergency medical dispatching business, that direction now appears to be changing.
Garry Earls, St. Louis County’s chief operating officer and a member of the ECC, recently said that sooner or later the new operation will have a fire and EMS dispatching capability. There are other small dispatch operations in the multi-county, bi-state area the ECC covers that are likely to turn to the ECC facility in order to provide a higher quality service, he explained.
“But we’re not marketing that (fire and EMS dispatching) service now and we don’t want to put anyone out of business,” Earls affirmed.
Regardless, three CCE user-owners – the Creve Coeur, Maryland Heights and West County EMS and fire protection districts – have approved resolutions stating their intent to consider having dispatch services provided by the new ECC operation.
The resolutions also say the districts’ severance with CCE hinges on whether differences between its user-owners can be resolved. At various times, CCE governance and management issues have been cited as reasons for the discord.
Two other CCE user-owners – Metro West Fire Protection District and Meramec Ambulance District – also have asked to withdraw their ownership status, but have indicated no plans to seek dispatching services elsewhere.
David Casey and Tim Flora, who represent Meramec and Metro West, respectively, on the CCE board joined with joined with Jane Cunningham, who represents the Monarch Fire Protection District, in opposing the resolution calling for the special committee. Favoring the motion were David Cobb, Tom Carter and Cathy Keeler, who represent West County, Maryland Heights and Creve Coeur on the board.
Earls said the county has made no proposals to CCE.
“Right now, we’re just sitting and waiting to see what may happen,” he said.
However, according to wording in the defeated resolution, ECC representatives approached CCE about forming a committee to consider a business relationship for dispatching services. The resolution does not identify the individuals involved.
While the ECC and St. Louis County work closely together and Earls’ responsibilities place him in both camps, the commission is a separate entity chaired by retired Florissant Police Chief Bill Karabas. Two of the seven ECC members are Jack Trout and Greg Brown, chiefs of the Frontenac Fire Department and Eureka Fire Protection District, respectively. Both the Frontenac and Eureka operations use CCE’s dispatching services.
Although the resolution failed, several CCE board members, including Casey and Cunningham who opposed it, stated their willingness to consider any formal proposal the county and/or the ECC might want to present.
Cunningham expressed a similar sentiment in remarks she made to the St. Louis County Council the day before the CCE board meeting. However, she also questioned why “heavy pressure” was being placed on CCE to adopt the resolution and said there was no reason for the ECC to duplicate fire and emergency medical dispatching services that the Ellisville center already is providing and “which is working marvelously well.”
She also questioned any suggestion that the CCE should be closed and used only as a backup. The ECC facility is “mainly above ground in tornado alley” while the Central County operation is underground and built to withstand the most severe tornados, she observed.
Cunningham called for an investigation into why the CCE board was being pressured to approve the resolution before the upcoming elections when the county executive position will be on the ballot.
In remarks before the CCE board meeting, West County’s Cobb said he didn’t believe the resolution was designed to force anything. Instead, he interpreted it as calling for a consensus on the idea of discussing various options for CCE’s future.
“Any decision beyond that would be premature at this point,” Cobb observed. “We’re simply at the information-gathering stage. And I think we (the CCE board) owe it to the taxpayers and the fire and ambulance operations we serve to look at all the facts and consider all the options before we make any kind of ultimate decision.”
At the board meeting, Cobb also agreed that CCE employees are doing a good job. But he advised against adopting a view that the operation is “the best.”
“When any business adopts the attitude that it’s the best, it is less likely to look for ways to improve. And there always will be ways to improve,” he observed.
Other actions taken during the closed meeting and announced when the public session resumed involved a variety of hiring and vendor contract issues. One of those, approved on a unanimous vote, called for hiring four additional dispatchers to replace two persons who recently resigned and two others to bring staffing up to an industry-recommended level.
The staffing issue had been debated and tabled earlier due to budget concerns and questions about the need for more personnel.
More news about Central County
A new fortress-like dispatching center that soon will house county police and regional state-of-the-art emergency communications also may someday become the nerve center for most of the county’s fire and ambulance calls.
Several fire district officials are downplaying the possibility that St. Louis County could swallow fire and ambulance dispatching now handled by Central County Emergency 911.
But County Police Chief Jon Belmar last month told the Board of Police Commissioners that some fire and ambulance districts have shown interest in contracting with the county once the $16.2 million communications center in Ohlendorf West Park opens.
“The police department did not solicit this conversation,” Belmar assured the board. “The agencies came to us.”
The county is now targeting an August startup for the 32,000-square-foot center along Hanna Road near Ballwin. The new center, built with reinforced concrete walls and blast-resistant windows to withstand a powerful tornado, was originally scheduled to open last summer.
Belmar estimates that nearly 80 percent of the county’s fire and ambulance calls will eventually be channeled through a center that will allow dispatchers, police and firefighters across the St. Louis metro area to communicate on an integrated radio system.
The consolidation of police, fire and ambulance dispatch under one roof, Belmar added, could cut emergency response times by almost 30 seconds.
“I would argue that it will save lives down the road,” the chief said.
Some fire district officials say they have had problems with Central County 911, which serves 34 fire and ambulance districts in St. Louis County. And yet, fire chiefs warn that a discussion of jumping over to the county is premature.
“I’ve got 42 years of service in the Spanish Lake Fire Protection District, and I’ve never had issues that I’ve experienced in the last six to eight months,” said Chief Michael Flavin. “The calls and the engine house are operating just fine. It’s communications on the street from our portables to the dispatch center and back where we’re getting a lot of static.”
After his firefighters had problems communicating with dispatchers during a house fire last month, Flavin said he called a meeting with county officials, the Black Jack and Riverview fire chiefs, cellphone company representatives and Central County’s director, Mike Turner, to discuss solutions.
“We have to find a solution immediately for firefighter safety,” Flavin said.
Turner says he is aware of concerns from some districts about Central County 911 transitioning from older technology to using GPS data to dispatch emergency vehicles. He said Central County has been upgrading the system since it took over dispatching from North Central County Fire Alarm last fall. He insists dispatching service in the county has never been better.
“We anticipated in the first six months there would be adjustments,” Turner said. “We’re at that six months now. Anytime you have an expansion of this magnitude, you’re going to have changes. I’m proud of what we’ve done and I’m very pleased with the level of service we’re providing.”
He said the number of emergency calls dispatched by Central County has quadrupled in the past year. “Calls are getting out much faster than they used to,” he said. “While we have more calls, we also have more people.”
He said he would be disappointed if agencies now with Central County left in favor of the new communications center, which Turner described as “the Taj Mahal of 911 centers.”
Some county fire district officials, however, warn that a discussion about turning communications over to the county is premature.
“We can’t make a commitment based on speculation when St. Louis County isn’t up and running yet,” said Michael Gantner, chief of the Black Jack Fire Protection District.
Gantner’s statement captured the prevailing sentiment among the majority of county fire districts. Some are excited about the potential to consolidate dispatching services in one place.
“We want to wait to see the eventual service level and the cost, but we’re ready, willing and able to help St. Louis County develop that kind of system,” said Terry Loehrer, chief of the Pattonville Fire District. “Everybody we’ve talked to says it’s a much more efficient manner of dispatching to have it in a joint operation.”
Loehrer said a faster system could save lives, citing what he said was a three-minute delay in rescuers responding to a single-engine plane crash in Creve Coeur Lake in October 2012. Loehrer said the delay stemmed from 911 calls being bounced among Maryland Heights police, North Central County Fire Alarm (now part of Central County 911) and the Pattonville Fire Protection District. The crash killed the pilot, Russell Hazelton, 78, and his wife, Suzanne, 69, of Town and Country.
“I don’t care if it’s 30 or 45 seconds, it could mean a lot,” he said.
A patchwork of systems sends police, fire trucks and ambulances to emergencies in St. Louis County. Some emergency vehicles are dispatched from municipal law enforcement call centers. Other equipment arrives at a fire or accident scene via Central County Emergency 911. Or an emergency call can be routed from the county police 911 system to Central County.
It is on many of the calls relayed to Central County that Belmar says the time to dispatch a call could shrink to just a few seconds from 30.
Several of the districts served by Central County joined after the dissolution of dispatch agencies for parts of north and south St. Louis County in the past year.
Northeast Fire Protection District Chief Quinten Randolph said he has observed problems with the quality of Central County 911’s dispatching service. He believes Central County 911’s rapid growth into new territory in north St. Louis County has meant relying too heavily on computers instead of experienced dispatchers who know the area. The result, he says, has meant the wrong mix of equipment being sent to emergencies.
“I think Central County is trying to do a good job, but there are some glitches and we’ve had some issues,” Randolph said. “It’s all so new so fast, and with any company that grows 300 percent in call volume in one year, you’re going to have some issues.”
In February, a Central County dispatcher mistakenly sent firefighters to a Ferguson house instead of a Florissant home that was burning because the homes had identical street names and numbers. Central County pledged to identify all duplicate addresses in the county and work to prevent similar errors.
Randolph was among those who said they would consider services from the county once the new communications center opens. Some chiefs who wouldn’t talk on the record said privately that they were reluctant to sign on with the county without knowing how long construction of the new building would take.
“Some of the bigger agencies are anxious to get this thing straightened out,” acknowledged Garry Earls, chief operating officer for the county.
Earls said most of the inquiries about switching to county dispatch are directed to him by districts looking to reduce their current communications fees.
Belmar and Earls say the county system will prove more cost effective.
Belmar said his department is already looking toward the day when its dispatchers handle both fire and police calls. Adding fire service would require training of existing dispatchers and perhaps hiring 20 more.
A new fortress-like dispatching center that soon will house county police and regional state-of-the-art emergency communications also may someday become the nerve center for most of the county’s fire and ambulance calls.
Several fire district officials are downplaying the possibility that St. Louis County could swallow fire and ambulance dispatching now handled by Central County Emergency 911.
But County Police Chief Jon Belmar last month told the Board of Police Commissioners that some fire and ambulance districts have shown interest in contracting with the county once the $16.2 million communications center in Ohlendorf West Park opens.
“The police department did not solicit this conversation,” Belmar assured the board. “The agencies came to us.”
The county is now targeting an August startup for the 32,000-square-foot center along Hanna Road near Ballwin. The new center, built with reinforced concrete walls and blast-resistant windows to withstand a powerful tornado, was originally scheduled to open last summer.
Belmar estimates that nearly 80 percent of the county’s fire and ambulance calls will eventually be channeled through a center that will allow dispatchers, police and firefighters across the St. Louis metro area to communicate on an integrated radio system.
The consolidation of police, fire and ambulance dispatch under one roof, Belmar added, could cut emergency response times by almost 30 seconds.
“I would argue that it will save lives down the road,” the chief said.
Some fire district officials say they have had problems with Central County 911, which serves 34 fire and ambulance districts in St. Louis County. And yet, fire chiefs warn that a discussion of jumping over to the county is premature.
“I’ve got 42 years of service in the Spanish Lake Fire Protection District, and I’ve never had issues that I’ve experienced in the last six to eight months,” said Chief Michael Flavin. “The calls and the engine house are operating just fine. It’s communications on the street from our portables to the dispatch center and back where we’re getting a lot of static.”
After his firefighters had problems communicating with dispatchers during a house fire last month, Flavin said he called a meeting with county officials, the Black Jack and Riverview fire chiefs, cellphone company representatives and Central County’s director, Mike Turner, to discuss solutions.
“We have to find a solution immediately for firefighter safety,” Flavin said.
Turner says he is aware of concerns from some districts about Central County 911 transitioning from older technology to using GPS data to dispatch emergency vehicles. He said Central County has been upgrading the system since it took over dispatching from North Central County Fire Alarm last fall. He insists dispatching service in the county has never been better.
“We anticipated in the first six months there would be adjustments,” Turner said. “We’re at that six months now. Anytime you have an expansion of this magnitude, you’re going to have changes. I’m proud of what we’ve done and I’m very pleased with the level of service we’re providing.”
He said the number of emergency calls dispatched by Central County has quadrupled in the past year. “Calls are getting out much faster than they used to,” he said. “While we have more calls, we also have more people.”
He said he would be disappointed if agencies now with Central County left in favor of the new communications center, which Turner described as “the Taj Mahal of 911 centers.”
Some county fire district officials, however, warn that a discussion about turning communications over to the county is premature.
“We can’t make a commitment based on speculation when St. Louis County isn’t up and running yet,” said Michael Gantner, chief of the Black Jack Fire Protection District.
Gantner’s statement captured the prevailing sentiment among the majority of county fire districts. Some are excited about the potential to consolidate dispatching services in one place.
“We want to wait to see the eventual service level and the cost, but we’re ready, willing and able to help St. Louis County develop that kind of system,” said Terry Loehrer, chief of the Pattonville Fire District. “Everybody we’ve talked to says it’s a much more efficient manner of dispatching to have it in a joint operation.”
Loehrer said a faster system could save lives, citing what he said was a three-minute delay in rescuers responding to a single-engine plane crash in Creve Coeur Lake in October 2012. Loehrer said the delay stemmed from 911 calls being bounced among Maryland Heights police, North Central County Fire Alarm (now part of Central County 911) and the Pattonville Fire Protection District. The crash killed the pilot, Russell Hazelton, 78, and his wife, Suzanne, 69, of Town and Country.
“I don’t care if it’s 30 or 45 seconds, it could mean a lot,” he said.
A patchwork of systems sends police, fire trucks and ambulances to emergencies in St. Louis County. Some emergency vehicles are dispatched from municipal law enforcement call centers. Other equipment arrives at a fire or accident scene via Central County Emergency 911. Or an emergency call can be routed from the county police 911 system to Central County.
It is on many of the calls relayed to Central County that Belmar says the time to dispatch a call could shrink to just a few seconds from 30.
Several of the districts served by Central County joined after the dissolution of dispatch agencies for parts of north and south St. Louis County in the past year.
Northeast Fire Protection District Chief Quinten Randolph said he has observed problems with the quality of Central County 911’s dispatching service. He believes Central County 911’s rapid growth into new territory in north St. Louis County has meant relying too heavily on computers instead of experienced dispatchers who know the area. The result, he says, has meant the wrong mix of equipment being sent to emergencies.
“I think Central County is trying to do a good job, but there are some glitches and we’ve had some issues,” Randolph said. “It’s all so new so fast, and with any company that grows 300 percent in call volume in one year, you’re going to have some issues.”
In February, a Central County dispatcher mistakenly sent firefighters to a Ferguson house instead of a Florissant home that was burning because the homes had identical street names and numbers. Central County pledged to identify all duplicate addresses in the county and work to prevent similar errors.
Randolph was among those who said they would consider services from the county once the new communications center opens. Some chiefs who wouldn’t talk on the record said privately that they were reluctant to sign on with the county without knowing how long construction of the new building would take.
“Some of the bigger agencies are anxious to get this thing straightened out,” acknowledged Garry Earls, chief operating officer for the county.
Earls said most of the inquiries about switching to county dispatch are directed to him by districts looking to reduce their current communications fees.
Belmar and Earls say the county system will prove more cost effective.
Belmar said his department is already looking toward the day when its dispatchers handle both fire and police calls. Adding fire service would require training of existing dispatchers and perhaps hiring 20 more.
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