Proposed changes to El Paso County DTRS sites

[soundchaser]

I attempted to make some some coverage maps for El Paso County, and found myself going in circles with inaccuracies in the Radio Reference Database regarding callsigns and locations.

After days of research of the FCC database and looking at past forum posts, I am proposing that the Radio Reference database be changed for the following El Paso county sites. Some of these changes were previously requested by people in the forums, but not done.

For my digging at the FCC, the primary CCs for all sites are assumed to be correctly associated with site number. Spot checking some of the tower files that were previously posted in the forum verify this.

4-011:
This site is misnamed. Fountain Valley is 4-022. This site should be named Cedar Heights 2 (or something similar). It shares the same location with 4-024 (within 300 feet). It is possible that this site will be phased out as some of the frequencies on the license are being assigned to Nextel. The callsign in the DB is correct (WPHK775).

4-012: Stanley Canyon
The primary callsign should be changed to WPMK711. It licenses the CC at this location. WTPQ260 (County) also licenses a few of frequencies here, but not the CC.

4-013: Ski Summit
No changes.

4-014: Calhan
The primary callsign should be changed to WPMK711 at it licenses 2 freqs here including CC. The secondary callsign is WPTQ260 and licenses 3 freqs at this location. (I think preference in the DB should be given to the CC.)

4-015: Woodland Park:
Callsign change: WPMK711 licenses 22 freqs at this location, include CC. WPTQ260 licenses 11 freqs at this location but not the CC. In the FCC DB, the longitude for WPMK711 is off by exactly 1 degree (obviously a typo). It is 105, not 104. The lat/long is correct on WPTQ260.

4-016: Austin Bluffs
Callsign change: WPMK711 licenses 22 freqs at this location, including CC. WPTQ260 licenses 11 freqs at this location but not the CC.

4-017: Airport
No Changes.

4-018: Mt. Pittsburgh:
Callsign change: WPMK711 licenses 5 frequencies here including CC. Other licenses include: WQKA392 licenses 2 freqs here, WPTQ260 licenses 3 freqs here.

4-019: Truckton
No Changes.

4-020: Badger Mtn.
No Changes.

4-021: Black Forest
No Changes.

4-022:
This site is misnamed. This is Fountain Valley.
The CC is licensed to this location with WQAD254 already in the DB. There is no DTRS site presently near Templeton Gap.

4-024: Cedar Heights
No changes. CC and 6 freqs are licensed by WPUF980. Four other freqs are licensed by WQKA392.

The site map would then look like this:

 

[firescannerbob]

I don't see the T-Gap site listed, and I don't see the Truckton site on the map.
As for "mis-named" sites, there are occasionally some "test" or temporary sites installed. Sometimes they become permanent (like Cedar Heights, with was a test site for a while), or they are taken down and moved somewhere else. That may result in some confusion over site names.

 

[soundchaser]

I don't see the T-Gap site listed, and I don't see the Truckton site on the map.
As for "mis-named" sites, there are occasionally some "test" or temporary sites installed. Sometimes they become permanent (like Cedar Heights, with was a test site for a while), or they are taken down and moved somewhere else. That may result in some confusion over site names.

Truckton is off the edge of the map. If I zoomed out, it'd be there.

The point I'm trying to make is there is no T-gap site. See 4-022 above. The only Templeton gap sites are old UHF and don't match any of the tower files previously posted.

 

[firescannerbob]

I'm 99.99% sure there is a T-Gap site. It was necessary to fill a large gap in coverage, and without it there are some huge holes in the network.
I'm not entirely sure what your information is based on, and will be happy to work with you on it to make sure the DB is correct. I'm not in Colorado right now, but will be happy to look into it further when I get home this weekend.

 

[soundchaser]

I've done frequency and proximity searches of the DTRS sites and can't find anything in the Templeton Gap area. If anyone can provide some proof, it would be appreciated.

One thought I had was that site 4-011 at Cedar Heights uses directional antennas to fill in coverage. It might help to explain why there are two DTRS sites at Cedar Heights, one omni and one directional.

 

[firescannerbob]

Cedar Heights is directional (south).
I have actually been to/seen the T-Gap site. If you look at your map, you'll see a large gap in coverage due east of Austin Bluffs, It may not be immediately obvious unless you use a topo map. There is a large hill (right where the T-Gap site is) that blocks the signal from Austin Bluffs. Calhan is too far east (and a small site), Black Forest is too far north, and Airport a bit south to cover the area near T-Gap.

 

[jimmnn]

Here is my logging of the Templeton Gap site and also note it's listed as a neighbor too most of the other El Paso County sites as well.

Remember to also not trust the FCC license DB as your sole source of information, we have found that highly inaccurate over the years.

Might be time to take a drive down south for some logging adventures in this beautiful weather.

Jim<

 

[soundchaser]

Thanks Jim. The license listed in the file expired because it was only a temporary license. Even if it was still active, it's not anywhere near Templeton Gap. I am pretty convinced that 422 is now Fountain. When I search the for the CC freq, Fountain is the only site that comes up.

Bob, I plotted the signals from Cedar, Austin, and Calhan, and I see the coverage hole you're talking about. But I can't find anything relevant in the area in the DB. Here's what I come up with on a proximity search: FCC Callsign Proximity Search: N 38.90973 W -104.7286 Range: 1

The only one I'm seeing that would fit is WQAK392, but it lists only one 800 frequency at that site (location 3). A DTRS site can't have just one frequency. Am I in the ballpark location of the site you've visited? I'm looking at the area of Stetson Hills Blvd, between Austin Bluffs Parkway and North Powers Blvd.

Yeah, the licenses could be wrong. I've looked at hundreds over the years, and the only errors I've seen are minor ones. I'll probably go a field trip there soon.

 

[firescannerbob]

I have confirmed the following since this thread started: The T-Gap site still exists as 422 and is operating on multiple frequencies as of right now. The location you have is correct.
There is only one Cedar Heights site, and it is directional. There is not a second site at that location.
This info was confirmed to me this afternoon.
I think the data you are basing your conclusions on is deeply flawed. The sites haven't changed in a very long time, and has been verified in the past. It has also been my experience, and that of others, that the FCC data base for DTRS sites is sometimes not very accurate. Basing locations and site info from that alone is not the best way to go.

 

[soundchaser]

As I said in my initial post, I didn't base my conclusions solely on the FCC. I'm also not the only one that has reached these conclusions.

But if the DB is crap, then I won't make any signal plots for the area since it needs accurate locations, power and antenna height.

Disregard this thread.

 

[firescannerbob]

It seems your conclusions were based on a number of factors except actual monitoring and/or logging of the sites, accompanied by visiting the area. I think that those are the only true ways to confirm or dispute the DB.
The system has been around for years, there have been no changes since the addition of the Cedar Heights site, and many people have logged the sites down here over the years. No one is 100% accurate 100% of the time, but it seems that this system has been analyzed pretty thoroughly.
If you're still interested in checking things out, I offered early on to help you out, and the offer still stands.

 

[soundchaser]

Here's how anybody here can help:

There are 2 sites that are wrong in the Radio Reference Database.

4-011:
RadioReference.com - Scanner Frequencies and Radio Frequency Reference Database
Needs updated coordinates. This site is shown at Cedar Heights.

4-022:
RadioReference.com - Scanner Frequencies and Radio Frequency Reference Database
Needs updated coordinates. This site is shown at Fountain.

Either submit the correct info or post it in this thread. That's all that needs to be done here.

 

[firescannerbob]

Here's how anybody here can help:

There are 2 sites that are wrong in the Radio Reference Database.

4-011:
RadioReference.com - Scanner Frequencies and Radio Frequency Reference Database
Needs updated coordinates. This site is shown at Cedar Heights.

4-022:
RadioReference.com - Scanner Frequencies and Radio Frequency Reference Database
Needs updated coordinates. This site is shown at Fountain.

Either submit the correct info or post it in this thread. That's all that needs to be done here.

The correct coordinates for 4-022 should be: N 38.911069° W -104.728541°
The coordinates given for 4-022 in the DB are actually the coordinates for 4-011.
Hope that helps.

 

[soundchaser]

I've updated the map at the top of this thread to reflect the correct site locations.

I logged a couple of the sites in question. There are some minor changes for the RR DB regarding frequencies.

On 422, the highest frequency has been dropped and a 1 new frequency at the lowest end has been added:

FileVersion:6
-TowerInfo
#This section is here for information only.  With the exception
#of the Call Sign(s), This data is not Read back into the program at all.
System ID             : D1C
System Name           : State of Colorado DTRS
WACN                  : BEE07
Tower Number (Decimal): 422
Tower Number (Hex)    : T0416
Tower Description     : Templeton Gap (El Paso, CO Springs)
Control Capabilities  : Data,Voice,Registration
Call Sign(s)          : WQFT382
Timestamp             : Sun Mar 20 12:19:50 2011

-Tables
#Format: Table ID,Base Freq,Spacing,Input Offset,Assumed/Confirmed,BandWidth,Slots
00,851.00625,0.00625,-45.00000,"Confirmed",0.00625,1
01,762.00625,0.00625,30.00000,"Confirmed",0.00625,1

-Frequencies
#Format: Channel,Usage,Frequency(/Slot),Input Frequency(/Slot),Hit Count
"00-0261","i",852.63750,807.63750,1
"00-0497","v",854.11250,809.11250,13
"00-0525","av",854.28750,809.28750,1
"00-0553","v",854.46250,809.46250,10
"00-0677","av",855.23750,810.23750,1
"00-0789","a",855.93750,810.93750,0
"00-0837","c",856.23750,811.23750,0

-Neighbors
#Format: TowerID,TowerIDHex,System ID,Channel,Frequency,Tower Name
411,"T040B",d1c,"00-1437",859.98750,"Fountain Valley (El Paso, CO Springs)"
412,"T040C",d1c,"00-0433",853.71250,"Stanley Canyon (El Paso, CO Springs)"
413,"T040D",d1c,"00-1433",859.96250,"Ski Summit (El Paso, CO Springs)"
414,"T040E",d1c,"00-0451",853.82500,"Calhan (El Paso, CO Springs)"
416,"T0410",d1c,"00-0461",853.88750,"Austin Bluffs (El Paso, CO Springs)"
417,"T0411",d1c,"00-1317",859.23750,"Airport (El Paso, CO Springs)"
421,"T0415",d1c,"00-1349",859.43750,"Black Forest (El Paso, CO Springs)"
424,"T0418",d1c,"00-1569",860.81250,"Cedar Heights (El Paso, CO Springs)"

On site 411, the two lowest frequencies have been dropped. The site now reports San Carlos (139) as a neighbor.

FileVersion:6
-TowerInfo
#This section is here for information only.  With the exception
#of the Call Sign(s), This data is not Read back into the program at all.
System ID             : D1C
System Name           : State of Colorado DTRS
WACN                  : BEE07
Tower Number (Decimal): 411
Tower Number (Hex)    : T040B
Tower Description     : Fountain Valley (El Paso, CO Springs)
Control Capabilities  : Data,Voice,Registration
Call Sign(s)          : WQAD254
Timestamp             : Sun Mar 20 13:25:40 2011

-Tables
#Format: Table ID,Base Freq,Spacing,Input Offset,Assumed/Confirmed,BandWidth,Slots
00,851.00625,0.00625,-45.00000,"Confirmed",0.00625,1
01,762.00625,0.00625,30.00000,"Confirmed",0.00625,1

-Frequencies
#Format: Channel,Usage,Frequency(/Slot),Input Frequency(/Slot),Hit Count
"00-0593","i",854.71250,809.71250,1
"00-0921","v",856.76250,811.76250,73
"00-0957","av",856.98750,811.98750,14
"00-1117","av",857.98750,812.98750,2
"00-1277","a",858.98750,813.98750,0
"00-1437","c",859.98750,814.98750,0

-Neighbors
#Format: TowerID,TowerIDHex,System ID,Channel,Frequency,Tower Name
139,"T0127",d1c,"00-0477",853.98750,"San Carlos CF (Pueblo)"
412,"T040C",d1c,"00-0433",853.71250,"Stanley Canyon (El Paso, CO Springs)"
413,"T040D",d1c,"00-1433",859.96250,"Ski Summit (El Paso, CO Springs)"
416,"T0410",d1c,"00-0461",853.88750,"Austin Bluffs (El Paso, CO Springs)"
417,"T0411",d1c,"00-1317",859.23750,"Airport (El Paso, CO Springs)"
418,"T0412",d1c,"00-0437",853.73750,"Mt. Pittsburg (El Paso, CO Springs)"
419,"T0413",d1c,"00-1357",859.48750,"Truckton (El Paso, CO Springs)"
421,"T0415",d1c,"00-1349",859.43750,"Black Forest (El Paso, CO Springs)"
422,"T0416",d1c,"00-0837",856.23750,"Templeton Gap (El Paso, CO Springs)"
424,"T0418",d1c,"00-1569",860.81250,"Cedar Heights (El Paso, CO Springs)"

 

[greenthumb]

The changes noted in posts #13 and #14 in this thread have been made in the database. Thanks guys!

 

[Mick]

851.375 & 852.1125 are still in daily use with Site 411.

I've updated the map at the top of this thread to reflect the correct site locations.

I logged a couple of the sites in question. There are some minor changes for the RR DB regarding frequencies.

On 422, the highest frequency has been dropped and a 1 new frequency at the lowest end has been added:

FileVersion:6
-TowerInfo
#This section is here for information only.  With the exception
#of the Call Sign(s), This data is not Read back into the program at all.
System ID             : D1C
System Name           : State of Colorado DTRS
WACN                  : BEE07
Tower Number (Decimal): 422
Tower Number (Hex)    : T0416
Tower Description     : Templeton Gap (El Paso, CO Springs)
Control Capabilities  : Data,Voice,Registration
Call Sign(s)          : WQFT382
Timestamp             : Sun Mar 20 12:19:50 2011

-Tables
#Format: Table ID,Base Freq,Spacing,Input Offset,Assumed/Confirmed,BandWidth,Slots
00,851.00625,0.00625,-45.00000,"Confirmed",0.00625,1
01,762.00625,0.00625,30.00000,"Confirmed",0.00625,1

-Frequencies
#Format: Channel,Usage,Frequency(/Slot),Input Frequency(/Slot),Hit Count
"00-0261","i",852.63750,807.63750,1
"00-0497","v",854.11250,809.11250,13
"00-0525","av",854.28750,809.28750,1
"00-0553","v",854.46250,809.46250,10
"00-0677","av",855.23750,810.23750,1
"00-0789","a",855.93750,810.93750,0
"00-0837","c",856.23750,811.23750,0

-Neighbors
#Format: TowerID,TowerIDHex,System ID,Channel,Frequency,Tower Name
411,"T040B",d1c,"00-1437",859.98750,"Fountain Valley (El Paso, CO Springs)"
412,"T040C",d1c,"00-0433",853.71250,"Stanley Canyon (El Paso, CO Springs)"
413,"T040D",d1c,"00-1433",859.96250,"Ski Summit (El Paso, CO Springs)"
414,"T040E",d1c,"00-0451",853.82500,"Calhan (El Paso, CO Springs)"
416,"T0410",d1c,"00-0461",853.88750,"Austin Bluffs (El Paso, CO Springs)"
417,"T0411",d1c,"00-1317",859.23750,"Airport (El Paso, CO Springs)"
421,"T0415",d1c,"00-1349",859.43750,"Black Forest (El Paso, CO Springs)"
424,"T0418",d1c,"00-1569",860.81250,"Cedar Heights (El Paso, CO Springs)"

On site 411, the two lowest frequencies have been dropped. The site now reports San Carlos (139) as a neighbor.

FileVersion:6
-TowerInfo
#This section is here for information only.  With the exception
#of the Call Sign(s), This data is not Read back into the program at all.
System ID             : D1C
System Name           : State of Colorado DTRS
WACN                  : BEE07
Tower Number (Decimal): 411
Tower Number (Hex)    : T040B
Tower Description     : Fountain Valley (El Paso, CO Springs)
Control Capabilities  : Data,Voice,Registration
Call Sign(s)          : WQAD254
Timestamp             : Sun Mar 20 13:25:40 2011

-Tables
#Format: Table ID,Base Freq,Spacing,Input Offset,Assumed/Confirmed,BandWidth,Slots
00,851.00625,0.00625,-45.00000,"Confirmed",0.00625,1
01,762.00625,0.00625,30.00000,"Confirmed",0.00625,1

-Frequencies
#Format: Channel,Usage,Frequency(/Slot),Input Frequency(/Slot),Hit Count
"00-0593","i",854.71250,809.71250,1
"00-0921","v",856.76250,811.76250,73
"00-0957","av",856.98750,811.98750,14
"00-1117","av",857.98750,812.98750,2
"00-1277","a",858.98750,813.98750,0
"00-1437","c",859.98750,814.98750,0

-Neighbors
#Format: TowerID,TowerIDHex,System ID,Channel,Frequency,Tower Name
139,"T0127",d1c,"00-0477",853.98750,"San Carlos CF (Pueblo)"
412,"T040C",d1c,"00-0433",853.71250,"Stanley Canyon (El Paso, CO Springs)"
413,"T040D",d1c,"00-1433",859.96250,"Ski Summit (El Paso, CO Springs)"
416,"T0410",d1c,"00-0461",853.88750,"Austin Bluffs (El Paso, CO Springs)"
417,"T0411",d1c,"00-1317",859.23750,"Airport (El Paso, CO Springs)"
418,"T0412",d1c,"00-0437",853.73750,"Mt. Pittsburg (El Paso, CO Springs)"
419,"T0413",d1c,"00-1357",859.48750,"Truckton (El Paso, CO Springs)"
421,"T0415",d1c,"00-1349",859.43750,"Black Forest (El Paso, CO Springs)"
422,"T0416",d1c,"00-0837",856.23750,"Templeton Gap (El Paso, CO Springs)"
424,"T0418",d1c,"00-1569",860.81250,"Cedar Heights (El Paso, CO Springs)"