Public Safety Pool/LMRS Use Question

[rasajdak]

Hello!

I belong to an organization with a Public Safety Pool license/frequencies.

I'd like to understand better what communication is allowed on these private frequencies.

Obviously, internal communications are authorized between members.

Are outside members authorized to use the frequencies when communicating with the organization? Are there any conditions on this?

Many thanks for considering my request.

R

 

[IAmSixNine]

Private frequencies? You mean public frequencies. There are certain protocols you can use to make them private. But being a public safety license does not make them private.

 

[mmckenna]

Are outside members authorized to use the frequencies when communicating with the organization? Are there any conditions on this?

You would need to tell us a lot more about your license.

If this is in the USA, and your license is from the FCC, then the agency can authorize other agencies to utilize their frequencies as long as it all falls under the limitations of the FCC license.
You would need to fully understand the limitations/requirements that come with holding a license. Area of operation, frequencies, power level, all those things are on the license and must still be followed.
Type accepted radio equipment must be used, no exceptions for "emergencies".
And, as always, the "licensee" is responsible for what happens under their license.

If you provide some more specifics, I can point you to the exact FCC rules that cover this.

 

[rasajdak]

You would need to tell us a lot more about your license.

If this is in the USA, and your license is from the FCC, then the agency can authorize other agencies to utilize their frequencies as long as it all falls under the limitations of the FCC license.
You would need to fully understand the limitations/requirements that come with holding a license. Area of operation, frequencies, power level, all those things are on the license and must still be followed.
Type accepted radio equipment must be used, no exceptions for "emergencies".
And, as always, the "licensee" is responsible for what happens under their license.

If you provide some more specifics, I can point you to the exact FCC rules that cover this.

Thanks for the info, does this link work: ULS License - Public Safety Pool, Conventional License - WQOJ843 - NIAGARA FRONTIER SEARCH AND RESCUE

 

[mmckenna]

Thanks for the info, does this link work: ULS License - Public Safety Pool, Conventional License - WQOJ843 - NIAGARA FRONTIER SEARCH AND RESCUE

That link works.

So, to be legal:
There would need to be a written/signed document from the person listed as the "licensee" with specific wording saying which agency can use radios, how many radios, which channels, under that license, and for how long. Any other specific requirements, limitations, rules, etc. need to be listed on that document. Both agencies need to keep a copy as proof.

The agency wanting to operate under their license needs to operate under the limitations of that license, including the area of operation.
Same goes for frequency, emission designator, power level, etc.

All radios use must be appropriately type accepted for Part 90 use. That means no MARS/CAP hacked amateur radios, Cheap Chinese Radios, or other nonsense. It is important to remember that the licensee is responsible for ALL radios operating under their license.

And in all honesty, this is sort of a stopgap measure. The agency that needs access should file for their own license, then they don't have to mooch of someone else. Getting 155.160MHz isn't hard and any reputable frequency coordinator can help you do it. That would put said agency on their own license and not cause any issues for anyone else.

In other words, the sharing agreement isn't supposed to replace proper licensing. It's intended so public safety agencies can interoperate with each other. Your agency should have its own license for their radios, and adding a limited number of frequencies for another agency is acceptable if done correctly. If your agency does search and rescue, then they should absolutely have their own license.

 

[rasajdak]

That link works.

So, to be legal:
There would need to be a written/signed document from the person listed as the "licensee" with specific wording saying which agency can use radios, how many radios, which channels, under that license, and for how long. Any other specific requirements, limitations, rules, etc. need to be listed on that document. Both agencies need to keep a copy as proof.

The agency wanting to operate under their license needs to operate under the limitations of that license, including the area of operation.
Same goes for frequency, emission designator, power level, etc.

All radios use must be appropriately type accepted for Part 90 use. That means no MARS/CAP hacked amateur radios, Cheap Chinese Radios, or other nonsense. It is important to remember that the licensee is responsible for ALL radios operating under their license.

And in all honesty, this is sort of a stopgap measure. The agency that needs access should file for their own license, then they don't have to mooch of someone else. Getting 155.160MHz isn't hard and any reputable frequency coordinator can help you do it. That would put said agency on their own license and not cause any issues for anyone else.

In other words, the sharing agreement isn't supposed to replace proper licensing. It's intended so public safety agencies can interoperate with each other. Your agency should have its own license for their radios, and adding a limited number of frequencies for another agency is acceptable if done correctly. If your agency does search and rescue, then they should absolutely have their own license.

Thank you for the thorough response. This is the license for the agency of which I am a member. The president was looking for clarification on the use of the license.

Do you know the license precludes the use of personal radios (Part 90 accepted) to operate on team frequencies as opposed to team radios? Can you point me in the direction of the regulations? I tried navigating the CFRs for Land Mobile Radio, but I kept going in circles trying to figure out what applied to us.

Thanks again!

 

[jeepsandradios]

The info @mmckenna gave you is accurate. If your a member of NFSAR I'd reach out to your president and or the Communications Advisor for the NYS Federation of SAR Teams. The teams in NY have many frequencies and repeaters. Al ot of valuable info could be had from your internal sources. The CNY region has meetings on this stuff quarterly and actually met last night in regards to many of the items your asking about. A hobby website is not the place to start.

 

[nd5y]

The president was looking for clarification on the use of the license.

Do you know the license precludes the use of personal radios (Part 90 accepted) to operate on team frequencies as opposed to team radios? Can you point me in the direction of the regulations? I tried navigating the CFRs for Land Mobile Radio, but I kept going in circles trying to figure out what applied to us.

Your president needs to read Part 2 and Part 90.

 

[mmckenna]

Thank you for the thorough response. This is the license for the agency of which I am a member. The president was looking for clarification on the use of the license.

OK, that makes sense.

Ideally the president of your group should not be getting advice off a hobby website. I'm happy to do what I can, and I have been doing this for a long time, but he'd be wise to talk to whoever did his licensing.

Do you know the license precludes the use of personal radios (Part 90 accepted) to operate on team frequencies as opposed to team radios? Can you point me in the direction of the regulations? I tried navigating the CFRs for Land Mobile Radio, but I kept going in circles trying to figure out what applied to us.

Federal Register :: Request Access

I took 2 sections out that don't answer your question, and included the two important ones.
What these say, in layman's terms is:

90.433 (c) - Mr. Barnas, since his name is on the FCC license as the "licensee" is responsible for the proper operation, maintenance and enforcement of the rules for anyone who operates under that license.
That includes: Making sure the system is operating within FCC rules and the confines of the license. This can mean that he can/should hire a radio shop to come in and periodically (once a year minimum) check everything and make sure all radios are operating properly. Many don't do this, but they should.
Essentially, since his name is on the license, it's his responsibility to make sure nothing is being done outside FCC rules.

90.433 (d) - This is the important one. It is his responsibility to make sure no one is adding radios to his system without his approval. That applies to everyone, even volunteers, employees, amateur radio operators, everyone.
It also means that if he grants permission to anyone to add radios to his system, he is responsible for making sure they follow FCC rules, correctly type accepted equipment is used, and all operation of said radios is done in accordance with the FCC license, no exceptions.

§ 90.433 Operator requirements.

(c) The station licensee shall be responsible for the proper operation of the station at all times and is expected to provide observations, servicing and maintenance as often as may be necessary to ensure proper operation. All adjustments or tests during or coincident with the installation, servicing, or maintenance of the station should be performed by or under the immediate supervision and responsibility of a person certified as technically qualified to perform transmitter installation, operation, maintenance, and repair duties in the private land mobile services and fixed services by an organization or committee representative of users in those services.
(d) The provisions of paragraph (b) of this section shall not be construed to change or diminish in any respect the responsibility of station licensees to have and to maintain control over the stations licensed to them (including all transmitter units thereof), or for the proper functioning and operation of those stations (including all transmitter units thereof), in accordance with the terms of the licenses of those stations.

Federal Register :: Request Access

www.ecfr.gov

§ 90.203 Certification required.
(a) Except as specified in paragraphs (b) and (l) of this section, each transmitter utilized for operation under this part and each transmitter marketed as set forth in § 2.803 of this chapter must be of a type which has been certified for use under this part.

There's a bunch more on this section, but this is one of the important parts. It means that any and all radios used under this license MUST has FCC Part 90 certification. This rules out amateur radios and a lot of the cheap radios sold on Amazon and e-Bay.
Why this is important:
There's a bunch of rules about what radio users can do with the equipment and what they cannot do with the equipment. The Part 90 certification means that the radio meets these requirements. It also means they meet the strict technical requirements and, if properly maintained, will not cause interference to other users.
So, it's important that the agency does not allow anyone to use a MARS/CAP modded amateur radio on their frequencies/under their license, and no one is using the non-type accepted Cheap Chinese Radios off e-bay/Amazon. As an agency that performs search and rescue, making sure you have proper equipment that is going to work when needed and won't cause issues for other users should be really high on your list.


There's a ton of other stuff. I cannot cover it all, but this is the two things that often get ignored.

 

[natedawg1604]

Does your team currently have radios on the local public safety system in your area? Also what radios are they using now? It may help if you could re-state your original question in a different way, and just explain what you are trying to do in plain English.

 

[jeepsandradios]

Do you know the license precludes the use of personal radios (Part 90 accepted) to operate on team frequencies as opposed to team radios? Can you point me in the direction of the regulations? I tried navigating the CFRs for Land Mobile Radio, but I kept going in circles trying to figure out what applied to us.

Your president should be talking to the Sherriff's Department representative who licensed and maintains your license. As said earlier there are folks that have these answer within the local SAR community.

 

[jeepsandradios]

Does your team currently have radios on the local public safety system in your area? Also what radios are they using now? It may help if you could re-state your original question in a different way, and just explain what you are trying to do in plain English.

In the past they had Motorola Mobiles in the command post and Motorola portables. I had worked with the president multiple times with radio stuff as well as the sheriffs department representative (as they were formed under the Sherriff)