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    For M/A Com/Harris/GE, etc: there are two software packages that program all current and past radios. One package is for conventional programming and the other for trunked programming. The trunked package is in upwards of $2,500. The conventional package is more reasonable though is still several hundred dollars. The benefit is you do not need multiple versions for each radio (unlike Motorola).

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Purchased Brand New Motorola APX 8000HXE

DanRollman

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No system key hacking needed for a Harris XG-100P, it trunks just fine with no affiliation and no transmitting.
Think we've been through this before, but that's only with older firmware/software, right? Current firmware and software combo does not allow that right?
 

prcguy

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RPM version 13.5.1.1 definitely programs non affiliate scan. The latest RPM is 14.3.5.0 and I have not specifically tried it but it probably does. I just loaded a trunking system made with RPM 13.5.1.1. and programmed into my radio with RPM 14.3.5.0 and it works in my radio which has the latest firmware, but I'm not in the trunking area to actually receive anything.

Think we've been through this before, but that's only with older firmware/software, right? Current firmware and software combo does not allow that right?
 

DanRollman

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RPM version 13.5.1.1 definitely programs non affiliate scan. The latest RPM is 14.3.5.0 and I have not specifically tried it but it probably does. I just loaded a trunking system made with RPM 13.5.1.1. and programmed into my radio with RPM 14.3.5.0 and it works in my radio which has the latest firmware, but I'm not in the trunking area to actually receive anything.
Can you clarify what you mean by non affiliate scan? Obviously Motorola can do that too - but means you are scanning off a conventional channel (we all know how that works). Are you saying you can program a trunked system into your XG-100P and sit on a single talkgroup - with no conventional channels programmed and no scan mode active - like a BK KNG can? Or are you just saying you can do the same jurry rigged NAS method Motorola fans use (sitting on a conventional channel and then scanning talkgroups on a trunked system) only without needing a system key to do so the way Motorola requires?

My understanding is that the KNG is the only public safety grade radio that can do TRUE 'rx only' programing - programming a radio just like an authorized subscriber would be programmed except it is RX only and no system key is required, and thus can sit and listen to a specific talkgroup without needing scan turned on at all (and thus have the ability to chose to sit on a talkgroup or flip a scan list on/off on the fly). Not sure how else to explain it. Clearly can do a ElroyJetson-style 'NAS method' of programming with a Harris radio, where you must always have scan turned on in order to hear trunked talkgroup activity, but I don't think of that as true 'RX only' programming.

Are we talking past eachother? Really interested in the answer, because the XG-100P would be a very compelling alternative to the KNG if in fact it really did have what BK calls 'RX Only' mode, as opposed to merely have the 'NAS programming' option that is not as flexible. And I simply don't know enough about Harris radios, so I really don't know if it does true RX Only or only NAS style (though everything I've ever read has said NAS only on Harris).
 

prcguy

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A friend did the code plug for me and I don't know enough to answer your question properly. All I can say is it works on the trunked system, different groups are listed with their IDs in the code plug so they show up on the radio screen, etc. The radio is set to never transmit or affiliate.

Can you clarify what you mean by non affiliate scan? Obviously Motorola can do that too - but means you are scanning off a conventional channel (we all know how that works). Are you saying you can program a trunked system into your XG-100P and sit on a single talkgroup - with no conventional channels programmed and no scan mode active - like a BK KNG can? Or are you just saying you can do the same jurry rigged NAS method Motorola fans use (sitting on a conventional channel and then scanning talkgroups on a trunked system) only without needing a system key to do so the way Motorola requires?

My understanding is that the KNG is the only public safety grade radio that can do TRUE 'rx only' programing - programming a radio just like an authorized subscriber would be programmed except it is RX only and no system key is required, and thus can sit and listen to a specific talkgroup without needing scan turned on at all (and thus have the ability to chose to sit on a talkgroup or flip a scan list on/off on the fly). Not sure how else to explain it. Clearly can do a ElroyJetson-style 'NAS method' of programming with a Harris radio, where you must always have scan turned on in order to hear trunked talkgroup activity, but I don't think of that as true 'RX only' programming.

Are we talking past eachother? Really interested in the answer, because the XG-100P would be a very compelling alternative to the KNG if in fact it really did have what BK calls 'RX Only' mode, as opposed to merely have the 'NAS programming' option that is not as flexible. And I simply don't know enough about Harris radios, so I really don't know if it does true RX Only or only NAS style (though everything I've ever read has said NAS only on Harris).
 

K2NEC

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I can answer that because I use a P7100 for the exact reason. I dont need a system key to program the system, i set auto registration to "none" and on the particular trunking channel you uncheck "transmit" and when you power up the radio, it wont try to affiliate, and when you press the ptt, it bonks you. As long as every channel has transmit disabled, it wont affiliate, it wont key, and I can sit on a tg and listen to that tg without the channel being scanned.

So long story short, NO BK is NOT the only radio that does genuine NAS.
 

DanRollman

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I can answer that because I use a P7100 for the exact reason. I dont need a system key to program the system, i set auto registration to "none" and on the particular trunking channel you uncheck "transmit" and when you power up the radio, it wont try to affiliate, and when you press the ptt, it bonks you. As long as every channel has transmit disabled, it wont affiliate, it wont key, and I can sit on a tg and listen to that tg without the channel being scanned.

So long story short, NO BK is NOT the only radio that does genuine NAS.
Thanks. You are right - I knew the P7100 with older firmware/software could do a sort of RX Only monitoring. But that radio doesn't do Phase II does it? And you aren't saying a XG-100P can do it? Or are you?

To be clear, my requirements are:

1. Ability to sit on and monitor a specific Phase II talkgroup on a trunked system, without scan mode being turned on or scanning from a conventional channel
2. Ability to turn scan on/off, and edit the scan list from the keypad.
3. Ability to program the radio to do this without needing a system key, and with zero chance of ever affiliating or transmitting, no matter what is pressed on the radio.
4. Using programming software the vendor is perfectly happy to sell to you without a bunch of hoops or fake letterhead.

The APX NAS method fails at least part of all 4 of the above prongs. I think the XG-100P fails only prongs 1 and 2 (insofar as you're scanning from a conventional channel), and it sounds like perhaps the P7100 fails only part of prong 1 (insofar as it doesn't do Phase 2 at all). But please correct me if I'm wrong on any of that.

I still believe the KNG is the only radio that can do all of what I've described, but I would love to know if that is not right and in fact I have alternatives. A few times over the last few years someone has said another radio can do all of what I have described, but then after I ask a few more clarifying questions or explain it a different way we conclude their solution doesn't in fact meet all of these requirements that the KNG is able to do. I know that's mostly on me - clearly I'm not explaining this well. Would love to see some 'competition' in this, just haven't found it yet.
 
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trentbob

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@trentbob thanks, so much, for your kind comments. Ahh, don't be jealous...you have a very nice transceiver; and, I like the blue and black casing...if you can, post a pick. Yes, the volume-punch and the, the feeling of quality, the feeling of solidness, and the bounce are definitely well-worth the price you and I pay for admission of ownership of these wonderful tools and toys. Your APX 7000 is highly coveted...in fact, it was my first choice over the 8000...I just wasn't able to find a new one; I was open to purchasing a used one, but I would only do so if I knew the HAM operator, and if he or she was the first original owner. Since that event never took place, I decide to make the choice to purchase a brand new APX 8000HXE.

Post pics if you can; and, let me know of any other new stories with your APX 7000 that might come up on your end!
Thank you for taking an interest in my radio oh, I certainly am interested in yours LOL. Here are the photos that you requested. I will have to do one at a time because of size.PSX_20200802_152941.jpg
 
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DanRollman

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Hey, that looks like ProClip mount that your APX7000 is sitting in! I love Proclips! Sadly I don't think they yet make a charging mount for the APX line. Here is the ProClip mount and device holder I use with my KNG2. The holder is wired for power/charging through contacts with the battery. They no longer make this one, but I managed to find one on eBay a while back. Great for turning this handheld into a powered all-in-one mobile solution.

89281
 

K2NEC

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Thanks. You are right - I knew the P7100 with older firmware/software could do a sort of RX Only monitoring. But that radio doesn't do Phase II does it? And you aren't saying a XG-100P can do it? Or are you?

To be clear, my requirements are:

1. Ability to sit on and monitor a specific Phase II talkgroup on a trunked system, without scan mode being turned on or scanning from a conventional channel.
2. Ability to turn scan on/off, and edit the scan list from the keypad.
3. Ability to program the radio to do this without needing a system key, and with zero chance of ever affiliating or transmitting, no matter what is pressed on the radio. (and auto-registration is set to none)
4. Using programming software the vendor is perfectly happy to sell to you without a bunch of hoops or fake letterhead.

The APX NAS method fails at least part of all 4 of the above prongs. I think the XG-100P fails only prongs 1 and 2 (insofar as you're scanning from a conventional channel), and it sounds like perhaps the P7100 fails only part of prong 1 (insofar as it doesn't do Phase 2 at all). But please correct me if I'm wrong on any of that.

I still believe the KNG is the only radio that can do all of what I've described, but I would love to know if that is not right and in fact I have alternatives. A few times over the last few years someone has said another radio can do all of what I have described, but then after I ask a few more clarifying questions or explain it a different way we conclude their solution doesn't in fact meet all of these requirements that the KNG is able to do. I know that's mostly on me - clearly I'm not explaining this well. Would love to see some 'competition' in this, just haven't found it yet.
XG100p CAN do it perfectly fine. Depending on the version of RPM, *MOST* modern Harris radios with the exception of the XL200, are capable of some form of non affiliate scanning. The older radios such as the P7100 and P7200 will do Phase 1. I have read that some of the P7200s with a specific hardware version will do Phase 2 but I can't confirm nor deny that. The P5x00 series also do Phase 1. The XG series of radios allow Phase 2. So the XG-15, XG-25, XG-75, XG-100 all do Phase 1 and 2 as long as the feature is in the feature set.

To answer your questions:
1. Yes you can sit on a TG without scanning or affiliating and hear that TG. Even if you hit the PTT, it will not affiliate or transmit as long as the TX box is disabled on that channel.
2. As long as you have a radio with a keypad, scan lists can be edited from the front. For the older radios like the P7x00 series and P5x00 series, scan lists are determined by "zones" not by the scan list. So your scan list is the zone that you are sitting in.
3. As long as you have the right RPM, yes. 0 chance of it affiliating and your radio will not respond to commands afaik.
4. Software is pretty straight forward to get, however it is $$$. If I remember correctly my RPM was $700 plus the dealer also wanted about $200 for the programming cable. I got a cheaper programming cable off a different website.

If you have any more questions or need more explaining, don't be afraid to ask or send me a PM.

EDIT: If you buy a radio with phase 1 but need phase 2, it's only like a $200 add on. If you buy a radio with no phase 1, the cost for phase one is gonna run you an arm and a leg.
 

DanRollman

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XG100p CAN do it perfectly fine. Depending on the version of RPM, *MOST* modern Harris radios with the exception of the XL200, are capable of some form of non affiliate scanning. The older radios such as the P7100 and P7200 will do Phase 1. I have read that some of the P7200s with a specific hardware version will do Phase 2 but I can't confirm nor deny that. The P5x00 series also do Phase 1. The XG series of radios allow Phase 2. So the XG-15, XG-25, XG-75, XG-100 all do Phase 1 and 2 as long as the feature is in the feature set.

To answer your questions:
1. Yes you can sit on a TG without scanning or affiliating and hear that TG. Even if you hit the PTT, it will not affiliate or transmit as long as the TX box is disabled on that channel.
2. As long as you have a radio with a keypad, scan lists can be edited from the front. For the older radios like the P7x00 series and P5x00 series, scan lists are determined by "zones" not by the scan list. So your scan list is the zone that you are sitting in.
3. As long as you have the right RPM, yes. 0 chance of it affiliating and your radio will not respond to commands afaik.
4. Software is pretty straight forward to get, however it is $$$. If I remember correctly my RPM was $700 plus the dealer also wanted about $200 for the programming cable. I got a cheaper programming cable off a different website.

If you have any more questions or need more explaining, don't be afraid to ask or send me a PM.

EDIT: If you buy a radio with phase 1 but need phase 2, it's only like a $200 add on. If you buy a radio with no phase 1, the cost for phase one is gonna run you an arm and a leg.
Thanks! That would be awesome if the Harris radios, especially the XG100P, were a legit alternative for what I am talking about. That software price is clearly more expensive than BK's software, but price was not in my list (and $700 for software and $200 for a cable shouldn't exactly be a game changer given what the radios cost anyway).

One question: You say "Even if you hit the PTT, it will not affiliate or transmit as long as the TX box is disabled on that channel." Why would it matter if the TX box is disabled on a particular channel, given you don't have (and didn't import into the software) a system key? Would the radio really attempt to affiliate or transmit if you hit the PTT on a trunked channel for which you forgot to disable the TX box, even though you don't have a system key and did not have a system key when the radio was programmed?

Also, what is "the right RPM" as you say in #3 above? Is that because older versions of RPM don't allow you to program a trunked system without a system key? Or newer versions don't allow you to do it? Or some other reason?
 

KevinC

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One thing to keep in mind on Harris RPM, certain system ID's are blocked (such as 1A7. 13E and 1BD) and require a special license to be able to enter those...unless this has been hacked.
 

K2NEC

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Thanks! That would be awesome if the Harris radios, especially the XG100P, were a legit alternative for what I am talking about. That software price is clearly more expensive than BK's software, but price was not in my list (and $700 for software and $200 for a cable shouldn't exactly be a game changer given what the radios cost anyway).

One question: You say "Even if you hit the PTT, it will not affiliate or transmit as long as the TX box is disabled on that channel." Why would it matter if the TX box is disabled on a particular channel, given you don't have (and didn't import into the software) a system key? Would the radio really attempt to affiliate or transmit if you hit the PTT on a trunked channel for which you forgot to disable the TX box, even though you don't have a system key and did not have a system key when the radio was programmed?

Also, what is "the right RPM" as you say in #3 above? Is that because older versions of RPM don't allow you to program a trunked system without a system key? Or newer versions don't allow you to do it? Or some other reason?
Any time! Glad to help

The XG-100P is a good alternative to the APX8000 at a fraction of the cost.

As far as I know, I haven't tested this and nor will I, if you keep transmit checked and press the PTT, it will transmit on the system.

I'll have to look up at what version RPM it required a system key I believe it is R14 and up but don't quote me on that. So anything older than R14 will work just fine.
One thing to keep in mind on Harris RPM, certain system ID's are blocked (such as 1A7. 13E and 1BD) and require a special license to be able to enter those...unless this has been hacked.
Oh? I never knew that.
 

DanRollman

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As far as I know, I haven't tested this and nor will I, if you keep transmit checked and press the PTT, it will transmit on the system.
OMG! That's crazy. Although I am perfectly competent at programming, I'm not sure I'd be comfortable knowing that inadvertently hitting the PTT means I affiliate and transmit on the system if a accidentally failed to check a box in the programming software, even though I didn't even have a system key when I programmed my radio. I wonder what the point of system keys are if in fact a Harris XG-100P is perfectly happy to program, affiliate, and transmit on the system without any system key ever being involved.

I'll have to look up at what version RPM it required a system key I believe it is R14 and up but don't quote me on that. So anything older than R14 will work just fine.
And the vendor is still perfectly happy to sell you the older software that allows programming without a system key? I guess that's good, although I wonder if they realize the software they are selling allows people to program a radio, affiliate, and transmit on the system without ever having a system key.
 

K2NEC

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OMG! That's crazy. Although I am perfectly competent at programming, I'm not sure I'd be comfortable knowing that inadvertently hitting the PTT means I affiliate and transmit on the system if a accidentally failed to check a box in the programming software, even though I didn't even have a system key when I programmed my radio. I wonder what the point of system keys are if in fact a Harris XG-100P is perfectly happy to program, affiliate, and transmit on the system without any system key ever being involved.
That's why you double, triple, quadruple check everything ;)
 

KevinC

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Any time! Glad to help

The XG-100P is a good alternative to the APX8000 at a fraction of the cost.

As far as I know, I haven't tested this and nor will I, if you keep transmit checked and press the PTT, it will transmit on the system.

I'll have to look up at what version RPM it required a system key I believe it is R14 and up but don't quote me on that. So anything older than R14 will work just fine.

Oh? I never knew that.
I believe some have been added since this was posted...

 

trentbob

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@trentbob thanks, so much, for your kind comments. Ahh, don't be jealous...you have a very nice transceiver; and, I like the blue and black casing...if you can, post a pick. Yes, the volume-punch and the, the feeling of quality, the feeling of solidness, and the bounce are definitely well-worth the price you and I pay for admission of ownership of these wonderful tools and toys. Your APX 7000 is highly coveted...in fact, it was my first choice over the 8000...I just wasn't able to find a new one; I was open to purchasing a used one, but I would only do so if I knew the HAM operator, and if he or she was the first original owner. Since that event never took place, I decide to make the choice to purchase a brand new APX 8000HXE.

Post pics if you can; and, let me know of any other new stories with your APX 7000 that might come up on your end!
Now that we have gone completely off topic with the participation of a Moderator I'm going to try to send the 2nd photo that I just cannot send even Resized_20200802_164618.jpegit was done the same way as the 1st one I'm gonna give it another shot. If it doesn't go through at least you got 1.
 
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RFI-EMI-GUY

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I have a few. Main radio is an XPR7550 in UHF. I bought one of your adapters with the intent of using it with an external antenna but was able to get my hands on an XPR4550 for the car so the adapter is a future needs item for now. My main VHF is an XPR6550 that I got as new old stock. Primary mobile for VHF is a Kenwood TM-281A. Nice radio...

I'm a former Motorolan. I lived in Schaumburg in the late 70's and early 80's and worked for both the Comm Group and Corporate in MIS. Needless to say that was heaven to a ham like me. It was the golden age of the HT220, MT500, MX Series radios, Micor mobiles and the Pulsar Mobile Telephone. I still have a prototype Micor stashed away with all the accessories and actually got an old 2 channel UHF Motrac up and running and used that in my car for a couple of years. The age of the Boat Anchors... Oldies but Goodies. I remember seeing Marty Cooper walking around the Comm building with the very first "brick" handheld phone back in the day.

Motorola is a very different place now. The Comm building in Schaumburg is *GONE*. Demolished recently and only the old Sector HQ building is left. The Corporate Tower and Annex are still there with the Motorola Solutions name and the old Comm Sales building is gone and is now HQ for Zurich Insurance. Lot's of changes...

I was there at same great times. One day a guy came into our lab waving an 800 MHz MX 300 around like a dowsing rod. When he left, my boss comes over and says, "do you know who that is?" That is Marty Cooper, he invented the cellular phone". At the time, even I had no idea what a cell phone was. This was like 1979 or so. Years later, I realized the interference he was seeking, probably was an 800 MHz PA module burn in fixture I had put together to cook a dozen PA modules at a time. The power oscillator that fed it was some ancient free running Philco power generator.
 

K9RPL

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I was there at same great times. One day a guy came into our lab waving an 800 MHz MX 300 around like a dowsing rod. When he left, my boss comes over and says, "do you know who that is?" That is Marty Cooper, he invented the cellular phone". At the time, even I had no idea what a cell phone was. This was like 1979 or so. Years later, I realized the interference he was seeking, probably was an 800 MHz PA module burn in fixture I had put together to cook a dozen PA modules at a time. The power oscillator that fed it was some ancient free running Philco power generator.
We probably passed each other in the halls more than once I'll bet. I spent a lot of time managing all the IBM mainframe terminals and printers all over that building. Lots of stories to tell about those days.

A buddy of mine helped design the synthesizer on the first MCX series mobile. Management used to get the different engineering groups to compete with each other so they would hide their designs from competing groups.
 
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RFI-EMI-GUY

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We probably passed each other in the halls more than once I'll bet. I spent a lot of time managing all the IBM mainframe terminals and printers all over that building. Lots of stories to tell about those days.

A buddy of mine helped design the synthesizer on the first MCX series mobile. Management used to get the different engineering groups to compete with each other so they would hide their designs from competing groups.
There was actually a lot of important work going on there at the time. It is sad to see what happened to the company. While this is actually a thread about the fancy schmancy APX, I must change back to on topic - in my opinion Motorola has not made a great handheld since the Systems Saber.

There, I did it. Let the flames begin!
 

prcguy

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You can look at your radio and wish it did more things, or get hacked software and enjoy all those things. Of course I would never, ever suggest obtaining or using hacked software, I'm just putting this out there to ponder.

One thing to keep in mind on Harris RPM, certain system ID's are blocked (such as 1A7. 13E and 1BD) and require a special license to be able to enter those...unless this has been hacked.
 
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