Question about rebanded frequencies and the database

[ssixsixsixx]

Hi all, I'm new to the forum but not new to scanning. I havent used a scanner since the rebanding process began as I didnt have a radio that would work with the rebanding, but I just picked up a Pro-106, installed and purchased the ARC500 software and succesfully updated the radio to the latest firmware. I believe I am doing OK using the software and I have been importing frequencies and such from the database here. I have been trying to scan the Suffolk County PD in NY (trunked rebanded system) and when its all said and done, I only seem to be picking up a small portion of the transmissions. Even stranger is that the scanner seems to be stopping on the programmed talkgroups at times when there should be a transmission but Im not getting anything. Then I wil get a random transmission crystal clear. I am confirming the transmissions are happening while listening to an online broadcast of the same transmissions, but Im not getting most of it on my radio. Squelch settings dont seem to make a difference, even unsquelched and paused on a talkgroup that I am sure is transmitting, I get nothing. But then I will get a random transmission clear as day. What I dont really know is if what I am importing from the database and uploading to the scanner is the actual rebanded frequencies. Making this more complicated is seeing the "rebanding calculator" in the software. Am I supposed to be applying the rebanding calculator prior to uploading to the scanner? Ive searched around, but between rebanding and the learning curve between this radio and what I was used to previously, I am quite lost. When I import the data from the dadabase, it reads "Suffolk County Channels : 22 / Rebanded GPS : 40.82111 / -72.91833". Does that mean they are already rebanded?

 

[W8RMH]

They have completed rebanding as September 2010. You should program exactly what you get from RR.

Here are the rebanded control channels - 851.36250, 851.41250, 851.68750, 852.28750.

It sounds like you may not have the Custom Bandplan entered.

Click on this page and compare it to what you have downloaded.

 

[ka3jjz]

Yes, this system is rebanded...however the one item you didn't mention was how well you're receiving it. If the signal is weak, I've seen this exact behavior on my 396. If this is the case, improvements in the antenna and/or feedline is called for..

I would also be sure that you have the system type correct as well as the custom table that's required. The database entry seems to have some screen shots - how applicable they would be I'm unsure, as I don't think they were from the object oriented scanners, but it's a place to start...

There are 2 links there - one for the RR thread on the subject, the other on W2LIE.net - I would start with these 2 if that isn't the issue you are having

Mike

 

[DickH]

... It sounds like you may not have the Custom Bandplan entered. ...

You can verify that if you see any 863.xxxx or 864.xxxx freqs. popping up and hear nothing.

 

[ssixsixsixx]

Thanks for the replies everyone, sorry it took so long to get back here today. In reply to W8RMH I'll have to check on that and compare which I will do now. In reply to ka3jjz I am getting a good signal, probably full to near full at all times. In fact I thought the antenna could be an issue and dug up the 800mhz specific antenna I was using with my other scanner and I got no different results. I have to figure out how to look up the system type within the radio. I downloaded the files from the database, uploaded them to the radio and made no further adjustments as everything seemed to be moving along automatically. And in response to Dick H, yes it does seem that when I AM recieving audio it isnt coming from those 863.xxxx or 864.xxxx frequencies, but where the scan stops on a talk group as though I should be hearing something and Im not, the 863.xxxx and 864.xxxx frequencies do seem to be present when I am hearing nothing. Are those control (or obsolete control) channels?

 

[W8RMH]

Those are the old CCs. Rebanding requires using frequencies below 860 MHz.
I listed the new CCs. Delete the old ones.

 

[kruser]

Those are the old CCs. Rebanding requires using frequencies below 860 MHz.
I listed the new CCs. Delete the old ones.

Even if the OP deletes those old frequencies from the radio, would not the 106 still tune to the wrong frequencies as it sounds like he is getting the correct control channel.
It seems as though the custom table for the rebanded system is not being used.

I ask this as I also had a problem with the 197 and a rebanded system.
I forget the system now but the database here showed the correct info but for some reason when I imported that system, the 197 would not use the custom table. The more I think about that problem the more I'm thinking that the import did not even add the custom table as I remember needing to figure it out on my own and type it in. I remember making several attempts before it worked. I could have been using Win500 or Arc500 as I have both but I cannot remember which I was using then.
I also remember it being an odd problem as I'd imported other rebanded systems into the same radio and they did automatically add the custom table that was needed.

Is it possible that some of the custom tables are not downloading when a user does an import of some rebanded systems?

edit: I followed your link to the OP's system and see a MISC info section at the top of the page that shows the custom table or band plan. The system I had trouble with did not have that info shown like that. Is that info as shown in the custom band plan screenshot in your link supposed to be automatically downloaded when a user imports a system? Or must the user always enter that info manually?

 

[W8RMH]

It seems as though the custom table for the rebanded system is not being used.

That is what I thought from the start based on the OP's first post (of course someone thinks I am wrong).

 

[ka3jjz]

That brings up the question of what build of ARC500 the OP is using - perhaps an older build had some bugs in it re rebanded system programming. If the build isn't current, then updating it and trying it again is in order.

It *should* apply the custom table *if* the rebanded flag is turned on. If you see the warning in the db about a site(s) being rebanded, then it should be on. However if one needs to do it manually, the instructions are in the User Guide in the Custom Band Plan section (although I can't imagine they'd be needed in this case)

Mike

 

[DickH]

Those are the old CCs. Rebanding requires using frequencies below 860 MHz.
I listed the new CCs. Delete the old ones.

NO. Those 863, 864 freqs. are what the scanner tunes to when it does not have the custom band plans entered. The channel number sent by the dontrol channel directs the scanner to those freqs.
Here's an example of what is happening. When 867.4000 is changed to 852.4000 there is no channel number in the scanner's firmware for that freq. So, Motorola "borrowed" channel numbers 440-5xx from the 862-864 range to assign to those new 851-853 freqs. with a zero in the 4th decimal place. Thus, 852.4000 shows up as 863.3875 on his scanner.
Take any of those "zero" freqs. and add 10.9875 to it to see what will show up on the scanner's display.

 

[kruser]

That brings up the question of what build of ARC500 the OP is using - perhaps an older build had some bugs in it re rebanded system programming. If the build isn't current, then updating it and trying it again is in order.

It *should* apply the custom table *if* the rebanded flag is turned on. If you see the warning in the db about a site(s) being rebanded, then it should be on. However if one needs to do it manually, the instructions are in the User Guide in the Custom Band Plan section (although I can't imagine they'd be needed in this case)

Mike

Thanks bunches for clarifying this Mike.

I thought that was the way it worked but I never found anything that really confirmed this until your current post.
I could probably go back and look at the systems in my GRE type radios and figure out what system it was I had the issue with and then look again at the database. I know in my case that the database showed the correct frequencies as I remember verifying them against the FCC site so it must have been either - 1 - the "rebanded" flag was simply not set for the sytem or 2 - it was a bug when using an older version of one of the software packages or perhaps a bug that still exists only when used in combination with certain scanner models.
If I try and track down and do find my troubled system, I'll post back but as it is, I'm heading into work right now. It seems an elevator has stopped working

 

[ssixsixsixx]

Thanks to everyone for the replies, I think the issue is solved. After reading the replies I started to look further into the ARC500 program and noticed the areas "T-Tables" and "Edit T-Tables" under the Trunked System tab. Looking into that I saw that there were no custom tables unless I applied them, and then changed T-Tables to "custom". After that all those 863.xxx and 864.xxxx frequencies were gone, and I appear to be recieving all transmissions. I think putting the thing down for the night helped too, sometimes it's best to walk away for a bit, haha!

 

[kruser]

Thanks to everyone for the replies, I think the issue is solved. After reading the replies I started to look further into the ARC500 program and noticed the areas "T-Tables" and "Edit T-Tables" under the Trunked System tab. Looking into that I saw that there were no custom tables unless I applied them, and then changed T-Tables to "custom". After that all those 863.xxx and 864.xxxx frequencies were gone, and I appear to be recieving all transmissions. I think putting the thing down for the night helped too, sometimes it's best to walk away for a bit, haha!

So... I wonder why the custom tables did not import with this system into your 106.
The way I understood ka3jjz's post is that the custom tables "should" have imported in automatically when you did the system import.

I bet this is what happened when I had the similar issue but with the 197.
Is the software at fault and not picking up on the rebanded tag for the system or is it something else that is going on.
Or was it like you said and it may have been a simple user mistake made due to being tired!


Edit: I used Arc500 and it does not set the custom tables for you. You must select them before you write the data to the radio.
It does get the rebanded data or it uses its own built in custom tables but it sure does not set them for you.

I then tried Win500 and it set everything up automatically for the Suffolk County system.

I'm not sure why Gommert set ARC500 to not automatically apply the custom tables but that seems to be the issue as Win500 works fine and sets everything for you.

 

[ssixsixsixx]

So... I wonder why the custom tables did not import with this system into your 106.
The way I understood ka3jjz's post is that the custom tables "should" have imported in automatically when you did the system import.

I bet this is what happened when I had the similar issue but with the 197.
Is the software at fault and not picking up on the rebanded tag for the system or is it something else that is going on.
Or was it like you said and it may have been a simple user mistake made due to being tired!


Edit: I used Arc500 and it does not set the custom tables for you. You must select them before you write the data to the radio.
It does get the rebanded data or it uses its own built in custom tables but it sure does not set them for you.

I then tried Win500 and it set everything up automatically for the Suffolk County system.

I'm not sure why Gommert set ARC500 to not automatically apply the custom tables but that seems to be the issue as Win500 works fine and sets everything for you.

Thats exactly what happened, the custom tables ARE being imported but like you said, they have to be applied by the user.

 

[kruser]

Thats exactly what happened, the custom tables ARE being imported but like you said, they have to be applied by the user.

So with that info, the user needs to pay extra attention if a system they are importing has been rebanded or not when using Arc500 or else it will not work very well.

If you view a system's page here, they have a yellow banner for the rebanded systems but when using software for programming, that info is not really seen so I can see how easy it is to make this mistake when using Arc500.

 

[ka3jjz]

I would strongly suggest you go to our scanner software forum and file a report - right now Gommert would not know to look at this message thread since it doesn't mention anything to do with ARC500 in the title. Be as specific as possible - include the system you are trying to import and what is apparently happening, as well as the ARC500 build number. That's the only way a potentially serious bug like this will get fixed.

Mike