Questions About Pricing For Used Radios

[EastCoastSunrise]

As first discussed in Advice On Getting A Set Of Radios.

To sum up, I volunteer aboard a Museum Ship in Quincy MA known as the USS Salem. Right now we use Beofang GT-1's for staff member communication. They are no where near adequate for our needs. So, with me knowing more about professional radio than anyone else onboard from my time creeping these forums and scanning public safety. I have been given the ok to look around at possible options and come up with a super general estimate for our director so they can start working out funding. Looking at how much new LMR Part 90 radios cost, I started looking at Ebay, as I know there can be deals on getting older used radios there. Recently as I have been going down the rabbit whole of Ebay offers prices have been all over the place. One of the more common items I've been looking at are old Motorola XTS 2500, 3000, 5000 radios, also various Motorola Commercial radios such as, the CP200 / 200D, CP185's, XPR6350's and similar. Plus Ill peak at Icoms and Kenwoods when I see them but they seem to be rarer. However, my question is, what should I be paying per radio for ones similar to the ones above? I know there are tons and tons of differences between the various radios, especially with the XTS's with regard to the housing's they are in plus which flashcodes they have. I ask because, prices go from less than $100 per radio, to around $900 per radio. When looking at supposedly identical models from the listing title, visually I can't tell the difference between them and the sellers state that they are in working order, with most offering to program them for you. Haven't really dug into flashcodes, but given how little we need in terms of additional features, I hadn't bothered to check. They seem to come with used batteries, a charger, and sometimes speaker mics. From what I've been thought, in general if it seems to good to be true it likely is, and my spider sense was going off when looking at these. As massive price fluctuations between two of the same item raises red flags.

So A) What is the value of used LMR radios such as these? B) What should they include with them if anything (is nothing better than something in this case?) C) Are these radios a good idea to buy in the first place? We will almost certainly be working with a professional installer/dealer for things like repeater's, antenna's, etc and likely programming, as unless the cost I have in my head for CPS is way to high, it likely wont be worth getting it, as we will likely have no need to reprogram them that often if at all. Do they work on used gear that you provide or are they not touching it as to not upset Big Motorola? I've read stories of people buying used radio's like these, then having a heck of a time getting them programed, or otherwise supported because of how the new owner acquired them. Additionally there are concerns over durability, however I'm less worried about that given how durable they are from Motorola, Kenwood, Icom, etc. But is there anything I should look out for?

All feedback is welcome! I am just trying to evaluate options so I can see what the board would like to do moving forward.

 

[mrsvensven]

Have you been comparing the frequency band between the radios? An 800MHz radio has much less value on the used market than a VHF or UHF for example.

 

[mmckenna]

I would consider an XTS overkill for this sort of application. They may be plentiful, but most of them lived a hard life in public safety duty and would very likely be in need of an alignment to make sure they still met specs and would be legal to use.
Since you don't need P25, you can probably do better and do it cheaper.

Without knowing what the FCC license allows, it would be hard to make an accurate recommendation. Interior of a ship would be a challenge for VHF. UHF/800MHz would be a better option. Either way, it either needs to match your FCC license, or you need to be willing to pay the tab on getting the correct frequency coordination/licensing done as part of this. You absolutely should NOT be buying radios first, and then figuring out licensing later. Licensing/legalities should be step #1 in all cases.

I would be hesitant to buy used radios off e-Bay. You need to consider the seller as part of your decision making. You'd do better purchasing from a reputable used radio dealer that will back up their sales. Most will do some level of benching of the radio to make sure it still meets specs.

Analog will likely be cheaper/easier for what you are doing. Figure out what band you are licensed for (or get the frequency coordination/licensing done FIRST) and then look at radios...

Sunny Communications / Used-Radios.com would be a good place to start. I've used them in the past when I needed a couple of analog UHF radios on the cheap for an application. They'll back up what they sell, unlike e-Bay.
Used-Radios.com has a ton of suitable radios at good pricing.

Remember, if you are working with volunteers, they will not be radio people, and will not appreciate over complicated radios. Keep it as simple as possible. The less controls they can dink around with, the easier the communications will be, and the less complaints you'll get. A basic analog 2 channel radio will do what you need and not completely over complicate the process or alienate the users.

 

[hp8920]

As mentioned on the Baofengs at school thread, P25 repeaters cost 5-10x that of commercial-grade LMR systems, for fundamentally the same thing. Especially compared to DMR systems that give you 2 talkpaths in one unit by default.

A question: why are the Baofengs inadequate for your needs? Poor coverage? While Baofengs are not good radios in terms of RF performance, a top of the line radio isn't going to be dramatically better. It may simply be that you're in a metal ship and it's an issue of the laws of physics.

How's your cellular coverage? A PTToC app might be your solution, making your volunteers provide their own phones.

 

[Giddyuptd]

Have you considered dmr? Kenwood? Nx line?

 

[kv5e]

DTR series radios work great aboard vessels and have the advantage of being licensed by rule.

 

[Giddyuptd]

DTR radios are definitely a solution if it meets range and penetration. Add in the hop aspect and making private groups it's pretty secure unless soemone has the time to sit there and try to play with all the possibilities everyday

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

Baofang GT-1 A rather pathetic radio with virtually no modulation. Not even sure what it is supposed to be.​

FCC ID 2AJGM-BF888S​

400-480 MHz			15B	1.1
400-406 MHz	1.8 Watts	0.91ppm	3K81F3E	9	BD, EF	2.1
400-406 MHz	1.8 Watts	0.82ppm	2K51F3E	9	BD, EF	2.3

1) Is your operation even licensed? I would start and possibly end there.
2) Motorola radios that are surplussed from public safety are available in several different frequency bands, and often the seller has no idea what they are offering, or they will try to sell an 800 MHz radio as "UHF". Then you have the issues of flash codes and CPS to deal with. Not for the weak at heart to deal with.
3) Surplus radios may be damaged, inhibited, ASK locked, or simply tuned so far out of whack by the uninformed that the operation will be terrible.
4) There is no shortage of radio dealers who can sell you good radios like Kenwood, Motorola commercial dealers (DTR/DLR business radios), MAXON, etc.
5) You cannot buy a radio solution on Amazon. You are wasting good beer money on toys that are often illegal and always junk.
6) You must have a license for VHF/UHF/800/900 MHz radios operating outside the 900 MHz ISM or UHF FRS bands.

 

[EastCoastSunrise]

Thanks everyone for the feedback on my question, all of the information is super helpful for figuring what we are going to do moving forward. To answer some questions that some have asked so far incase they have other insight to add.

1) The GT-1's have piss poor coverage for us. Your lucky if you can raise someone just over 1000ft away line of sight.
2) Presently we don't have a frequency licensed, that would be part of the process we are embarking on. Obviously, we won't be buying radios until we lock a frequency down. The reason I am asking now before we have even started to licence spectrum is because my job right now is to create a rough cost estimate so we can figure out if we can even afford to begin the process. However thank you for cautioning me as to not buy hardware until that is done.
3) Everything is on the table be it analog, DMR, P25, NXDN, etc. I was asking about the XTS radios as they appeared to plentiful and cheeper or about the same price for more capability. There is a good chance that we will end up on a digital system for coverage reasons, as others have brought up before, physics is working against us, so even with several repeaters, I bet we will have coverage issues. (As much as I would love to have repeaters everywhere, for cost reasons, they will need to be strategically placed to cover as much as possible for as little as possible. I am 100% aware that this isn't ideal, and that because these systems are going to be used during events such as the fire alarm going off, its important that deadzones are reduced. Which as far as I am aware and my experience with scanning, digital modes such as DMR, P25, etc are better suited for challenging RF environments such as ours. If we do continue with the project, we will talk with a dealer about what exactly is required. I am just talking a look at rough numbers to provide a lose estimate for later discussion.
4) Reaching out to dealers is on the list, but first I wanted to do some background research to get a rough idea of whats out there, and what we need overall.
5) Buying Amazon specials is off of my list of advocacy, they all seem less than quality, and given the radios we will end up buying will be living a hard life (just like most other commercial radios we want to get fewer higher quality sets, than more junk ones that will die sooner.

 

[Thunderknight]

2) Presently we don't have a frequency licensed, that would be part of the process we are embarking on. Obviously, we won't be buying radios until we lock a frequency down. The reason I am asking now before we have even started to licence spectrum is because my job right now is to create a rough cost estimate so we can figure out if we can even afford to begin the process. However thank you for cautioning me as to not buy hardware until that is done.

If you don't have a frequency licensed, then why are the radios being used now? (and what frequency are they be used on? Hopefully not something at random.)

 

[hp8920]

There is a good chance that we will end up on a digital system for coverage reasons, as others have brought up before, physics is working against us, so even with several repeaters, I bet we will have coverage issues.

I understand cruise ships often use PTT over WiFi systems. A network of 10-20 WiFi APs is going to be a lot cheaper than buying 10 repeaters. See the Icom IP series, but again if you're poor, an app-based solution is the cheapest and there's numerous ones available. Further, the infrastructure can be shared with other internal uses, like security cameras, IP phones, interactive kiosks, point-of-sale, etc.

Which as far as I am aware and my experience with scanning, digital modes such as DMR, P25, etc are better suited for challenging RF environments such as ours.

It's the opposite. Analog FM is better in weak signal. Digital is better when dealing with interference, flutter in a moving car, and is more spectrally efficient. I fear you're expecting miracles, and no mode is going to change the laws of physics.

 

[mmckenna]

You have a need, and you've laid that out pretty well. Your original post you did a while back lead us all in the same direction, but you keep coming back to fairly high end radios as the solution.

What that tells us is that you have no idea what this is going to cost. That's not a jab at you, it's the truth. Anyone thinking that a non profit museum can afford a shipboard communications system based off traditional LMR technology doesn't understand what they are getting themselves in for.

A 700 foot long heavy cruiser is going to take a lot of equipment to provide traditional LMR coverage inside. You have a few hundred compartments that are all fully enclosed in steel. All the watertight compartments are going to block RF. Trying to model RF coverage inside a ship like that is way beyond what any of the high end professional modeling software can handle. Designing a radio system to cover the inside of a ship is a huge task that requires professionals. This isn't hobby radio. This requires professionals with experience in this sort of application. Those professionals are not going to work for free.

I'd be really surprised if a non-profit museum that has had challenges finding places to moor the ship and relies on volunteers and donations is going to be able to afford the type of engineering that it will take to make this work the way you expect. Your ideas, while good, are not based in any sort of reality. You can't just stick a couple of repeaters in the ship and magically get coverage. It's not going to work. Even the US Navy knows that.

Traditional shipboard RF based communications systems were usually a 'leaky coax' system. There would be one repeater located somewhere on the ship. Location didn't really matter since there were no antennas. The RF was pumped through a leaky coax feeder that ran through the ship. Anywhere they needed coverage, they'd run coax. It worked well.

But, we're not talking about Radio Shack RG-58 coaxial cable here. They usually ran a very specific type of slotted Heliax cable. The slots let the RF leak in/out of the cable along its length.
That cable is large and it's expensive. You'd be looking at dollars per foot, as in several dollars for each linear foot of cable you'd need. You'd probably need at least 700 feet to get from bow to stern. On each deck, probably.

You are looking at literally TONS of cable, probably a mile or more, at several dollars per foot. And it's not something that a volunteer can install. It's very difficult to work with. It requires expensive connectors. It requires expensive splitters. It requires professional installation.

I really don't think you understand how much money you are looking at to make this work. Unless your non-profit is sitting on huge piles of cash that is literally burning holes in pockets, I highly doubt you can afford this sort of system, its installation, its upkeep.

And to do all this for a handful of volunteers that may be working on the weekend starts to look like 100% pure insanity. It would not be cost effective by any stretch of the imagination. This is way beyond a few $1500 repeaters and some used radios off e-Bay.


However, there is a solution.
It's not going to look like Motorola XTS5000 radios, it's not going to be a traditional LMR system.

You really need to be looking at the Icom IP100 line of radios. This is the exact sort of application that it would work well in.

Instead of spending a few thousand dollars on a repeater, then hundreds of thousands of dollars on leaky coax and the installation, you'd use what you probably already have, an IP network.

Running some Category 5 twisted pair cable through the ship is easy and cheap. Volunteers could absolutely do that. It would be affordable, and you'd have the benefit of a communications network that could be used for more than just two way radio.

Adding coverage would involve installing a new WiFi access point where needed. Start with a few and see how it does. Got a dead spot? Install a new access point.
The Icom radios are not expensive. Heck, you can do the same thing with cell phones running an app.

This is a reasonable design that will do what you want, and may even be affordable. The traditional LMR system is not going to be affordable, not by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[N4KVE]

Do cell phones work in the ship? If there is cell coverage use POC radios which run off the cell phone network. No infrastructure to buy, no FCC permits, & the radios are usually $200 each, with a $20 a month bill per radio for unlimited airtime.

 

[bc780l]

I can echo agreement to options that have been mentioned several times in these two threads:

Icom's WiFi radios (with bridging and multiple access points--if you have a network installed throughout the ship--and also offers other LMR connectivity if you want):

IP100H License-free IP radio for wireless network (WLAN) - Features - Icom America

www.icomamerica.com

Motorola's DTR600/700 series 900MHz FHSS:

DTR On-Site Digital Two-Way Radios - Motorola Solutions

The Perfect Partner for Small Business Communications

www.motorolasolutions.com

Both would be worthy of ship-board communications.

As the ship was decomissioned in 1959, one would have to check what upgrades have been made in recent years, hoping for CAT5 at least to all the critical areas. IP linked repeaters would also be a solution for LMR.

BTW, awesome comm center photo on your web page!

Home - USS Salem CA-139 - Quincy, Massachusetts

Welcome to the U.S. Naval Shipbuilding Museum in Quincy, MA. The USS Salem is the world's only preserved Heavy Cruiser. Get your tickets online today!

www.uss-salem.org

 

[mmckenna]

Motorola's DTR600/700 series 900MHz FHSS:

DTR On-Site Digital Two-Way Radios - Motorola Solutions

The Perfect Partner for Small Business Communications

www.motorolasolutions.com

1 watt 900MHz radios aren't likely to work well. The people that talk about them working well aboard ships are usually talking about cruise ships. The design of a cruise ship and a naval vessel are vastly different. Cruise ships are wide open spaces, lots of windows, little to no watertight doors/bulkheads in passenger areas.

The interior of a naval ship is going to be very carefully sealed, no huge windows or open areas.

As the ship was decomissioned in 1959, one would have to check what upgrades have been made in recent years, hoping for CAT5 at least to all the critical areas. IP linked repeaters would also be a solution for LMR.

IP linked repeaters are going to be very expensive, and he'd need a LOT of them to make this work.



The other challenge that pops into my mind is that this is a 1940's era ship. That means a LOT of asbestos, lead paint/primers(Red Death). Usually the asbestos gets encapsulated at some point, but its still there. The paint/primer is still there.

You absolutely do not want to be trying to run large coax cable or even any cable through a ship unless you are well versed in dealing with asbestos. My dad was an EM2 on an attack transport, and he died from mesothelioma a few years ago. Asbestos insulation. That is not a nice way to go, and no amount of radio is worth it.

 

[speedway_navigator]

But, we're not talking about Radio Shack RG-58 coaxial cable here.

But you were talking about leaky coax....

I've seen some RG-58 with more metal in the center conductor than the braid.

 

[bc780l]

There are many coverage constraints. The only way to find out is to test, test, and test. Every system I've worked on required $money to get it working right.

BTW, there are DTR range extenders I've seen, but not tested nor know of their efficacy. It might be worthy of consideration. Yes, it's a tight ship, but virtually all museum ships I've been on had hatches open, so there's a possibility that DTRs might work with such range extenders strategically placed. An example (no ensdorsement implied):

Cane Wireless - DRX digital repeater

Two-Way business radios and accessories

www.canewirelesspro.com

No easy, cheap solution.

I'd request you advise what solutions you've tested and found successful for your final implementation. We'll all be interested.

 

[mmckenna]

But you were talking about leaky coax....

I've seen some RG-58 with more metal in the center conductor than the braid.

Yeah, that crossed my mind, but the losses would be pretty high.

I used to have a length of leaky Heliax with the jacket stripped off, good discussion piece.

 

[speedway_navigator]

I had a race team that made an antenna run from RS RG-58 and those screw on BNC connectors. I think they had 50% reflected power, this was before FDRs and VNAs.

 

[EastCoastSunrise]

You have a need, and you've laid that out pretty well. Your original post you did a while back lead us all in the same direction, but you keep coming back to fairly high end radios as the solution.

What that tells us is that you have no idea what this is going to cost. That's not a jab at you, it's the truth. Anyone thinking that a non profit museum can afford a shipboard communications system based off traditional LMR technology doesn't understand what they are getting themselves in for.

A 700 foot long heavy cruiser is going to take a lot of equipment to provide traditional LMR coverage inside. You have a few hundred compartments that are all fully enclosed in steel. All the watertight compartments are going to block RF. Trying to model RF coverage inside a ship like that is way beyond what any of the high end professional modeling software can handle. Designing a radio system to cover the inside of a ship is a huge task that requires professionals. This isn't hobby radio. This requires professionals with experience in this sort of application. Those professionals are not going to work for free.

I'd be really surprised if a non-profit museum that has had challenges finding places to moor the ship and relies on volunteers and donations is going to be able to afford the type of engineering that it will take to make this work the way you expect. Your ideas, while good, are not based in any sort of reality. You can't just stick a couple of repeaters in the ship and magically get coverage. It's not going to work. Even the US Navy knows that.

Traditional shipboard RF based communications systems were usually a 'leaky coax' system. There would be one repeater located somewhere on the ship. Location didn't really matter since there were no antennas. The RF was pumped through a leaky coax feeder that ran through the ship. Anywhere they needed coverage, they'd run coax. It worked well.

But, we're not talking about Radio Shack RG-58 coaxial cable here. They usually ran a very specific type of slotted Heliax cable. The slots let the RF leak in/out of the cable along its length.
That cable is large and it's expensive. You'd be looking at dollars per foot, as in several dollars for each linear foot of cable you'd need. You'd probably need at least 700 feet to get from bow to stern. On each deck, probably.

You are looking at literally TONS of cable, probably a mile or more, at several dollars per foot. And it's not something that a volunteer can install. It's very difficult to work with. It requires expensive connectors. It requires expensive splitters. It requires professional installation.

I really don't think you understand how much money you are looking at to make this work. Unless your non-profit is sitting on huge piles of cash that is literally burning holes in pockets, I highly doubt you can afford this sort of system, its installation, its upkeep.

And to do all this for a handful of volunteers that may be working on the weekend starts to look like 100% pure insanity. It would not be cost effective by any stretch of the imagination. This is way beyond a few $1500 repeaters and some used radios off e-Bay.


However, there is a solution.
It's not going to look like Motorola XTS5000 radios, it's not going to be a traditional LMR system.

You really need to be looking at the Icom IP100 line of radios. This is the exact sort of application that it would work well in.

Instead of spending a few thousand dollars on a repeater, then hundreds of thousands of dollars on leaky coax and the installation, you'd use what you probably already have, an IP network.

Running some Category 5 twisted pair cable through the ship is easy and cheap. Volunteers could absolutely do that. It would be affordable, and you'd have the benefit of a communications network that could be used for more than just two way radio.

Adding coverage would involve installing a new WiFi access point where needed. Start with a few and see how it does. Got a dead spot? Install a new access point.
The Icom radios are not expensive. Heck, you can do the same thing with cell phones running an app.

This is a reasonable design that will do what you want, and may even be affordable. The traditional LMR system is not going to be affordable, not by any stretch of the imagination.

Thank you for this absolute treasure trove of information. In reading this, I finally realized how in over my head I am when it comes to this stuff so thank you for being patient with me as I ask dumb questions about things I have no idea about. Also thank you for pointing out the Icom Wifi Radios to me. I had no idea they existed, and they will integrate well with the new WiFi system I happen to be in charge of deploying. I also found other manufactures of similar radios online, and was wondering if anyone has any recommendations for brands or models. Not saying the Icoms are not a good solution, just looking for other potential options to evaluate.

Thank you and everyone else who contributed to this tread. It has been eye opening thus far and has uncovered new options to explore.