Questions for Orange County listeners

[kma371]

I was looking at doing some changes to the way the CCCS is displayed since it's out of compliance with the database as it is now. After speaking with another admin, we decided to post a message here to better clarify a few things before making changes. The most definite change will likely be moving the Police listings from the general "City Law Enforcement (GREEN)" to their own city subcategory.

Secondary to that, I wanted to clarify usage of the channel names, specifically for the Orange Co Fire Authority and MetroNet. For example, lets look at the OCFA talkgroup 2672 "5B Dispatch" Is the "5B" naming portion used on the air in communications or is it just a channel name as programmed in radios?

The reason I ask is if you look at the MetroNet and North Cities talkgroups, there are several '1A' & '1B' designators in the description field. This obviously creates confusion with the way they are listed, because I could be listening to 1A Brea Tac or 1A Garden Grove Ops.

Now the alpha tags look ok the way they are listed, we might need to throw a "FD" in there somewhere to denote a Fire listing, but that's the least of my worries.

Additionally, all the county services talkgroups are named "silver #" as well as all the law enforcement talkgroups being "green #" everyone should see a problem with that.

Please let me know what you guys think. There needs to be changes for sure so sorry if it makes people upset, but we need some continuity to the way things are listed and Orange County isn't exempt from that.

 

[bmendez]

Orange county fire and metro net both have 5b and when they say something they say 5 b so they are program like that on their radio and they don't have the description on like that scanners have I think you should just put 5b 5e like they have their radio program

 

[PaulNDaOC]

When dispatching each call MetroNet and OCFA both can be heard refer to OPS channel that units are to use by number and letter as seen in the database ie: '2 November'. so indicating that OCFA dispatch is 5B is relevant.

 

[bmendez]

They only said when during structure fire and major incident s and medical aid so when they are a call dispatching will say responding on 3e

 

[bmendez]

]They only said when during structure fire and major incident s and medical aid so when they are a call dispatching will say responding on 3e
And yes metronet has its only dispatch service and ocfa has it too different frequncis

 

[Mikek]

As has been said, the fire services refer to "System/Mode" always, and do not use the description unless radio-savvy and communicating with a non-fire unit on an interop channel.

The "System/Mode" designators used by fire are a holdover from the old 3-system Type 1 days, where System 1 were the department specific admin/ops channels, and 2-4 were stand-alone trunked systems, used by NorthNet, CentralNet and OCFA respectively. The STX radios had a 16 position channel/mode knob up top labeled A through O and systems were changed via keypad. Then as today, Zone 1 in a fire radio is agency specific, so 1A in Brea is different than 1A in Orange, but both departments refer to it as 1A, and only their department channels appear in their radios. (Brea doesn't have Orange's 1A).

Silver, Green and Pink talkgroups are agency specific also, and non-fire users refer to those channels by color and number ("Green 1"). Like above, talkgroups from one agency are not in any other agency radio. Pink talkroups appear only in fire radios where the FD is operated by the city itself. OCFA does not have Pink. Anaheim Fire does.

There are probably a dozen unique "Silver 1" talkgroups. So - if you want my vote, both channel designator and description are important. I think those are covered in the way the system is currently listed.

Possibly of note - talk group 2672 appears twice as 4B and 5B in subscriber radios. This was done so that users can reach OCFA ECC without changing zones from the 'new' zone 5 that was added when CCCS went live and OCFA nearly doubled the number or talk groups they had. There's a TG reserved for 5B should growth dictate splitting the county onto 2 dispatch channels.

Hope this helps!

 

[Markb]

I completely understand the need for a revision. Here is my 2 cents:

OC absolutely uses the zone/channel designators. The color naming schemes are also heavily used. "Anaheim PD1", which was just updated, has no tie-in to how channels are named. It has been Anaheim GREEN for the last 50 years at least. It would be like referring to CHP Turquoise as "CHP Inland 1" Anaheim PD1 would be appropriate in the channel description, but I don't feel it's appropriate for the alpha tag. The colors really should be mentioned in there somewhere. I see the issue with people downloading the DB into their scanner and having 40 Silver channels loaded in. How about adding a City abbreviation to the alpha tag (GGV-SILVER-1)? I have a list of the official 3 letter city designators if that would be helpful.

I think that omitting the color names and zone/channel designators is going to create a lot of questions and confusion for people who are new to the system or otherwise unfamiliar.

I was looking at doing some changes to the way the CCCS is displayed since it's out of compliance with the database as it is now. After speaking with another admin, we decided to post a message here to better clarify a few things before making changes. The most definite change will likely be moving the Police listings from the general "City Law Enforcement (GREEN)" to their own city subcategory.

Secondary to that, I wanted to clarify usage of the channel names, specifically for the Orange Co Fire Authority and MetroNet. For example, lets look at the OCFA talkgroup 2672 "5B Dispatch" Is the "5B" naming portion used on the air in communications or is it just a channel name as programmed in radios?

The reason I ask is if you look at the MetroNet and North Cities talkgroups, there are several '1A' & '1B' designators in the description field. This obviously creates confusion with the way they are listed, because I could be listening to 1A Brea Tac or 1A Garden Grove Ops.

Now the alpha tags look ok the way they are listed, we might need to throw a "FD" in there somewhere to denote a Fire listing, but that's the least of my worries.

Additionally, all the county services talkgroups are named "silver #" as well as all the law enforcement talkgroups being "green #" everyone should see a problem with that.

Please let me know what you guys think. There needs to be changes for sure so sorry if it makes people upset, but we need some continuity to the way things are listed and Orange County isn't exempt from that.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

 

[drsl2000]

I was looking at doing some changes to the way the CCCS is displayed since it's out of compliance with the database as it is now. After speaking with another admin, we decided to post a message here to better clarify a few things before making changes. The most definite change will likely be moving the Police listings from the general "City Law Enforcement (GREEN)" to their own city subcategory.

Secondary to that, I wanted to clarify usage of the channel names, specifically for the Orange Co Fire Authority and MetroNet. For example, lets look at the OCFA talkgroup 2672 "5B Dispatch" Is the "5B" naming portion used on the air in communications or is it just a channel name as programmed in radios?

The reason I ask is if you look at the MetroNet and North Cities talkgroups, there are several '1A' & '1B' designators in the description field. This obviously creates confusion with the way they are listed, because I could be listening to 1A Brea Tac or 1A Garden Grove Ops.

Now the alpha tags look ok the way they are listed, we might need to throw a "FD" in there somewhere to denote a Fire listing, but that's the least of my worries.

Additionally, all the county services talkgroups are named "silver #" as well as all the law enforcement talkgroups being "green #" everyone should see a problem with that.

Please let me know what you guys think. There needs to be changes for sure so sorry if it makes people upset, but we need some continuity to the way things are listed and Orange County isn't exempt from that.

Yes they absolutely use the tags 5N, 5B, etc.. Phonetically of course (5 November). You must leave those in the database. True for the Silvers as well, Parks always says to switch to Silver 3 or Silver 2 , etc.. You just have to keep track of what agency you are listening to (I do this with groups).

As far as the Greens go, when helos are dispatched, they refer to the colors/#'s "OK I will switch to your Green-2 , or Yellow-4, etc" They usually refer to station numbers, i.e. Station 26 for Anaheim. They rarely refer to cities, mostly to station #s.
http://wiki.radioreference.com/index.php/Orange_County_(CA))
I wouldn't spend to much effort on Greens and Yellows as they're encrypted.

A even better thing to add is which cell (i.e. site) the talk groups are on. For instance 5N is on countywide cell , 2N is north, etc...

 

[oracavon]

Yes you should definitely keep the designators and channel numbers in the database tags.

On the air, the fire talkgroups are referred to by their designators (5B, 3E, etc.). When field units are dispatched or told to change talkgroups, they are told "Respond on 3E" or "Switch to 2N". When fire units who may or may not have switched talkgroups call OCFA or vice-versa, they will call out which talkgroup they are on (i.e., "ORCO Engine 62 on 5B") so the agency or unit being called will know which talkgroup they are expected to answer on.

As far as the green channels go, they are referred to by number on the air. For example, when a PD reaches an available air unit on AirCall, they will tell the air unit which talkgroup is being used for the call (i.e., "Green 1" or "Green 2") so the air unit can join the call. It's understood that they're referring to the green channels belonging to the calling agency.

So on the air, the fire talkgroups are referred to by designator, and the green talkgroups are referred to by number.

 

[kma371]

What seems easiest is to leave the colors in the description field. The previous alpha tags were not useful at all since they were all silver this or that with no reference to agency.

But what a mess

 

[LAflyer]

Frankly the alpha tags need to keep the color codes as well because that is how frequencies are referred to on the air by users.
So if someone says switch to Color-1, then likewise on the scanner I switch to that color.

Yes indeed colors are repeated city after city, but its pretty logical you go to the appropriate color for that city you are monitoring not that color for another city.

I fully agree with Markb who states that simply calling a talkgroup such as Anaheim PD1 now is wrong as that is not what you would hear on the air. Talkgroup is known as Anaheim Green.

I believe his suggested naming convention of keeping the official color naming conventions while also introducing the official 3 letter abbreviation is the better way of doing it. This preserves the official nomenclature as used on the air, and also adds specificity to help in the Db. So for example Garden Grove's Silver-1 becomes GGV-SILVER-1 as alpha tag.

 

[Fireboat03]

I think we are splitting hairs when it comes to this Alpha Tag debate. I think that everybody could agree that any talkgroup that has an "E" in that column is "irrelevant" in the scanning community anymore.

In Orange County we just look past these talkgroups anymore. So switching to these colored coded talkgroups has not been on our radar for the past 15 years now. Maybe for other systems moving forward in cities where this might help in parts of LA County would be nice to have, but OC its a waste of time. Just saying

Just trying to shed light on the bigger picture here. Honestly changing up the map for the CCCS is kind of a waste of time since nobody listens to LE or Public Works on this system anyways.

 

[kma371]

Frankly the alpha tags need to keep the color codes as well because that is how frequencies are referred to on the air by users.
So if someone says switch to Color-1, then likewise on the scanner I switch to that color.

Yes indeed colors are repeated city after city, but its pretty logical you go to the appropriate color for that city you are monitoring not that color for another city.

I fully agree with Markb who states that simply calling a talkgroup such as Anaheim PD1 now is wrong as that is not what you would hear on the air. Talkgroup is known as Anaheim Green.

I believe his suggested naming convention of keeping the official color naming conventions while also introducing the official 3 letter abbreviation is the better way of doing it. This preserves the official nomenclature as used on the air, and also adds specificity to help in the Db. So for example Garden Grove's Silver-1 becomes GGV-SILVER-1 as alpha tag.

Well you should know more than others as an admin, that the DB listings are to be listed as such for the novice user and not based on system names. Keeping the colors names at least in the description should satisfy this system naming obligation.

GGV SILVER 1 doesn't state who the agency is and leaves it ambiguous. Using GGV PD 1 its clear who the user is. The description field further describes the use, Garden Grove Police Silver 1.

 

[kma371]

I think we are splitting hairs when it comes to this Alpha Tag debate. I think that everybody could agree that any talkgroup that has an "E" in that column is "irrelevant" in the scanning community anymore.

In Orange County we just look past these talkgroups anymore. So switching to these colored coded talkgroups has not been on our radar for the past 15 years now. Maybe for other systems moving forward in cities where this might help in parts of LA County would be nice to have, but OC its a waste of time. Just saying

Just trying to shed light on the bigger picture here. Honestly changing up the map for the CCCS is kind of a waste of time since nobody listens to LE or Public Works on this system anyways.

An E in a talk group description or alpha tag is indeed irrelevant because there is a column which identifies a talk group as being digital encrypted or just plain digital.

 

[Mikek]

There is no such thing as Garden Grove Police Silver 1....

I see that the changes have been made to the database. It's a mess. Case in point: There several duplicate alpha tags for unique talk groups - "O-Tac" for example.

Why was input from local listeners solicited if our feedback was not going to be considered?

 

[Markb]

+1

I get that RR wants to cater to the new scanner listener and blow off the majority who have been doing this for years in order to further the Home Patrol concept of dialing up a zip code and monitoring with no effort or expertise required. (/sarcasm off/)

One problem I see as I alluded to before is that after a short time of listening even for a new listener, they will become confused and have difficulty navigating through the programming when someone says they are on silver-1 or "switch to 9-G". Many people would have to carry a copy of the DB with them to translate.

Why not change the labels on LA County Fire to say what they really are and dump the "Blue-x" channel identifiers? How about LA Sheriff? Same issue there. In my mind, there is a disparity in how tags are being made up.

I realize you won't please everybody, but it appears that the majority would like to keep things as close to real world programming as possible. If you are in this hobby or do it for a living, there is some education and learning that has to take place. That's how we all got to where we are.


I would be willing to become a DB admin for OC if it would be helpful.

Mark

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

 

[LAflyer]

Well you should know more than others as an admin, that the DB listings are to be listed as such for the novice user and not based on system names. Keeping the colors names at least in the description should satisfy this system naming obligation.

GGV SILVER 1 doesn't state who the agency is and leaves it ambiguous. Using GGV PD 1 its clear who the user is. The description field further describes the use, Garden Grove Police Silver 1.

For starters, its very clear what GGV SILVER 1 is. All it takes is a little education about the system to get to know what color designations are to learn its Garden Grove Public Works. This color education info can be added either on the Db page directly or in a Wiki if more appropriate.

And Silver is what listeners whether novice or expert would hear on the radio. If you want to argue for the benefit of the novice user especially, they are the ones that will be confused the most if they hear something on the radio that says "switch to Silver-1" and lo and behold there is nothing such downloaded into their scanner that says Silver-1. I certainly don't expect users have to print out screen shots of the Db so they can read the description fields, when the Color info can be nicely contained in the Alpha Tag.

Now as far as the Db, if you really want to dig deep, you'll see some of the most common alpha tag descriptions include very common Blue 1,2,3, or Red 1,2,3 listings in city after city and state after state. I know as I travel the nation for work and download info regularly and see this. Using Blue or Red alpha tags make sense when system users are set up this way and this is exactly what scanner listeners will hear.

At the end of the day, IMO, leaving the color info in Alpha field is quite logical when it comes to CCCS as that is how the system is utilized and is what listeners will hear. It nicely aligns actual system set up with the nomenclature scanner listener will hear.

And frankly, I am a little surprised at wholesale changes being made to the Db in less than 24-hours from posting this thread soliciting input from members. Whats the point of asking for input if time is not provided for enough folks to see this thread and chime in with their insight and information?

 

[Fireboat03]

There is no such thing as Garden Grove Police Silver 1....

I see that the changes have been made to the database. It's a mess. Case in point: There several duplicate alpha tags for unique talk groups - "O-Tac" for example.

Why was input from local listeners solicited if our feedback was not going to be considered?

RR.com lives in their own world. They want our submission for talkgroups and new systems that we find on our own time. But we get nothing out of it except a headache now with our local system with typos and talkgroups that have been named wrong.

Don't worry about the people that really know this system.

 

[kma371]

There is no such thing as Garden Grove Police Silver 1....

I see that the changes have been made to the database. It's a mess. Case in point: There several duplicate alpha tags for unique talk groups - "O-Tac" for example.

Why was input from local listeners solicited if our feedback was not going to be considered?

My error, Silver is the Public Works.

And for info, I never changed the two "O-Tac's" listed at 4176 and 4400 so I really don't have an answer for you.

As far as I can tell, this discussion is still going on. Yes, changes have been made to the DB, but this is still a work in progress.

 

[kma371]

RR.com lives in their own world. They want our submission for talkgroups and new systems that we find on our own time. But we get nothing out of it except a headache now with our local system with typos and talkgroups that have been named wrong.

Don't worry about the people that really know this system.

You are not obligated to contribute, neither am I or neither is anyone else. This is about making the DB more clear for people that may not be from your "local" area. Having 50 talkgroups named "Silver 1" doesn't help anyone. You and I know you can't argue with that.