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Questions on GRMS and FRS transmitting

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brodiecooke

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Myself and a group of friends use a mix of radios ( Motorola, Midland, Baofeng, etc ) when we camp and during airsoft/paintball games.

I want to put a stronger radio than these handsets in my car. I have been looking at ham as I am working on getting licensed, along with being able to talk over a longer range.

I am pretty new to this and have not been able to find clear answers to a few questions.

If I need to make these separate in two places please let me know.

Question 1.
I know Baofeng is a bad example. I have found many radios meant for a car do not, or are not listed to, transmit in the GRMS and FRS bands.
I have seen that the max limit for some frequencies in these are limited to 5w or 15w. I am confused as to why these radios list that they have power settings. then are listed to not transmit in these frequencies.
What is the use of a power setting if you are using in a vehicle?
It seems like when paying 200 or more for a radio I should be able to broadcast using the lower power setting.
I know you are able to use these outside of vehicle and there could be times then.

Question 2.
It is very hard to find a straight answer on powering a radio in a car.
Many people say the only way to do it is from the engine bay, from the battery and grounding bolt.
However I see many people using add a fuse for power but give no info on where to ground.
I have added accessories to a car before and add a fuse has worked great. As a radio seems way more complex than a light bar or 12v socket, I want to do it right without drilling holes.
 

alcahuete

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Just remember that if your friends aren't licensed as well, you will not be able to talk to them on the ham bands. A ham radio license doesn't give you any special privileges on FRS/GMRS.

Question 1:
To transmit on GMRS, you technically need a Part 95 approved radio to be legal. Ham radios are not approved for transmitting in the GMRS band, which is why they don't advertise being able to transmit there.

Some of the Kenwood radios are Part 95 certified and will also cover ham radio (70 cm) when you get your license. But they also require programming software, programming cables, etc. They are not plug and play. Does that make a difference? Just depends on how comfortable you are.

Question 2:
The absolute correct way to do it is powering straight off the battery. Will other methods work? Sure. I have put a mobile radio in a rental car before and powered it off the cigarette lighter plug (or accessory plug, or whatever) and used a mag mount antenna. Is that the right way to do it? No, but you can't wire to the battery and drill an NMO mount on a rental car.
 

mmckenna

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alcahuete explained it well.

It's not about buying any radio and using it however you want. The FCC has specific standards that the radio must meet to be legal to use on different radio services.
There are very few limitations on what you can do with your ham license within the confines of the ham bands. As stated, your amateur (ham) license will only give you permission to transmit on the ham bands. An amateur license grants precisely zero privileges to transmit outside the ham bands.
The transmitters used on the ham bands don't have the requirements on them that are required on other radio services (GMRS, FRS, CB, MURS, LMR, etc). Purpose built amateur radios don't have any certifications on the transmitter portion at all.

On other radio services, there are specific technical requirements that the transmitters MUST meet to be certified for use on those radio services. The FCC rules for GMRS are extremely clear on this, the only radios that can be used to transmit on GMRS are those that have a valid FCC Part 95E certification. No exceptions. This means that it is no legal to take an amateur radio and modify it to transmit out of band.

So, for what you want to do, you're kind of in a pickle.
Getting your ham license will only allow you to transmit on the amateur radio frequencies. No where else. Not GMRS.
You will need to get a valid FCC issued GMRS license to transmit on GMRS, and you will need to have a valid FCC issued amateur radio license to transmit on the amateur bands.

The GMRS rules say that any radios you use to transmit on GMRS -must- have FCC part 95 certifications. The off the shelf ham radios do NOT have that. Some of the features on the ham radios preclude them from being certified for GMRS.

So, you'll either need two radios (one ham, one GMRS) or you'll need a GMRS radio that has the capability to transmit on the 70cm amateur bands.
You will be much happier having an off the shelf ham radio. The features are 'new ham' friendly.
You'll also need a UHF radio that has FCC Part 95 certification to use on GMRS.

It's kind of complex for new users to understand, but we're happy to help. Tell us more about what you plan on doing with ham and GMRS, and we can help you find suitable radios.



As for mobile radio installation, there are many ways to do it incorrectly, but only one way to do it right. Radios need clean DC power. Tapping into existing vehicle wiring is a quick way to get a bad headache. The RF interference you can get out of existing vehicle wiring can be a big problem. Even using cigarette lighters.
Commercial radio manufacturers will -always- tell you to run power direct from the battery. Don't cut corners if you want this equipment to work correctly and reliably.
 

brodiecooke

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Thank you both for the clear answers!

At this point im not too worried about how well the radio works as I would only every use it a few times a year.
If I really get into it I would want to mount it correctly but I would also spend more money on it.

I am currently looking at the anytone 778uv since it seems like a good entry level radio

What is frustrating for me is when I buy something like a radio I want it to be able to do more than just one thing.
Learning all the laws about what can do what is really throwing a wrench into that mindset.

I do some camping in very remote areas and having a powerful radio is important as a lifeline.
I'm willing to deal with getting in trouble if it saves me.

As for the GRMS side of it, are you able to get both the GRMS license and the ham license?
 

vagrant

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TLDR; You and the others probably just need a battery eliminator, a pigtail adapter and an external antenna and not a radio with more power.

I am unsure of what model radios you and your friends are using, but it sounds like all of you would benefit from getting your own GMRS license. It covers each of you individually as well as your immediate family. No testing and I believe the fee for 10 years will soon be $35. It was or still is $70. Everything is done online for registration. You first get your FRN and then the GMRS license. Additionally, a GMRS license will enable one to use nearby GMRS repeaters that are "open" for those with a GMRS license to use. ( An Amateur license is only for Amateur bands ) Thus, instead of using simplex to talk with friends, your range may dramatically increase using a GMRS repeater. ( Repeaters are not allowed for FRS license by rule users ) Each of you would need to say your individual GMRS callsigns at least every 15 minutes.

For GMRS I mainly use Motorola XTS5000 handheld radios. One can adjust low and high power with a maximum of five watts or whatever it will do. To power the radio in the vehicle one could use a battery eliminator that plugs directly into the cigarette/power port and saves the battery for use away from the vehicle. The battery eliminator clips in where the battery normally goes and you won't pull enough power on the handheld to blow a fuse. Alternatively, there is a Motorola XTVA. This device allows one to slip the handheld into it for power/charging and external antenna hookup. There is also a special antenna part you will need to fit onto the handheld. Either of these options will benefit from a magnet mount or external antenna mount to increase your TX/RX range. Still, the above Motorola stuff can complicate things as far as co$t, software and the ability to figure out the programming.

At this point I am doubtful if you really need a radio with more power versus an external antenna. A simple pigtail, which is a piece of coax that fits on the radio and the other end to the external antenna connector, along with the external antenna may be a very effective solution and save you plenty of money versus the above Moto handheld. Everyone in your group would benefit from doing that...and getting your GMRS license. A pigtail may cost around $10 or less. A magnet mount antenna should be less than $50, or you could wire up an external mount with your preferred antenna and coax. No holes need to be drilled.

To further answer some of your questions, I have a Amateur and GMRS license. In my vehicle I have multiple radios, but one is a Motorola XTL5000. That is a mobile radio. I have it setup to transmit 10 watts on low and 40 watts on high. I use it on Amateur and GMRS frequencies and almost always on low (10W) power. I use it with amateur and GMRS repeaters as well as simplex (radio-to-radio). I use an external antenna for it and as to wiring the power, the positive lead connects to the battery and the negative line to a nearby grounding spot near where the mobile radio is installed. In my case a seat lug to the chassis with a ring adapter around it. I am doubtful you need an XTL5000, but I offer it to give you an idea of what someone uses that has more power and where/how I wire it. Oh yeah...definitely use a properly rated fuse regardless of power source.
 
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mmckenna

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Yeah, newbie mistake is to assume more power is going to solve all the issues.

It doesn't work like that.

Your antenna is the most important part of the system. If GMRS is doing what you need, then stick with that. Ham isn't going to get you a whole lot more for your camping needs. Ham gives you access to more repeaters, but that doesn't mean much, it's sometimes hard to raise a live human on a ham repeater. Hams are not always helpful when you need them. Relying on random people to help you if you have an emergency is really hit or miss.

While I have a ham license (and have for a very long time) I still carry a satellite beacon when I go out. It's pretty much a guarantee that you will get help when you need it. It's a small device that you can tuck in your pocket. You'll pay $250 or so for one, but you'll pay that much for a good amateur radio.

Add in some higher quality GMRS radios, like Vagrant suggested. Most of the cheap consumer ones, or the God-awful Baofengs won't perform as well.

Between GMRS and a satellite beacon, you'll pretty much have all you need, and it'll save you some money in the long run. Ham has it's place, but it's not the total solution that some hams want you to think it is. If you are interested in getting your license, go for it, but don't let it stop you from getting the right equipment for the job.
 
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