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Radio article found in (the police magazine) ??

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photoguy2

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"Phase II is the P25 standard for narrow band communications." Um, so P25 P1 is wide band only?

"Unfortunately, P25 Phase I radios cannot be used on a P25 Phase II system, which means agencies that want to enjoy the benefits of Phase II must buy new radios." (Unless I'm mistaken) Technically true, but very miss-leading. They can be used, just all radios on the talkgroup will use P1. Almost sounds like it was written by Motorola.

"Designed for interoperability, the APX Dual mobile Radio operates on the 700 MHz and 800 MHz bands as well as VHF frequencies. This provides a single platform for police and fire radio interoperability. " Uhhhh, first, its any of two bands, and second, are they assuming that and police is on 7/800 and all fire on VHF? A dual band radio does not mean fire and LE can talk. What about (as many areas are) Fire and LE on the same band? What about TRSs? Never mind the fact that a dual band radio is useless if the operator is not trained, and does not have the right mindset.

I won't rant on the E word, but they talk about interop in the first part, then barely mention the issues that have to be addressed.

I am glad they make it clear that the smartphones apps were for office staff types only. They had me scared with visions of my local cops running around with Nextels.

"FirstNet systems will operate on Band 14 of the 700 MHz spectrum, which was previously used by VHF television signals." 700 is UHF, not VHF.

"That's not to say there aren't some benefits to broadband access on police radios. It's just that the benefits are not readily evident to the average officer." Ability to get rid of separate MDT modems? Have basic info pushed to the officers handheld, say, a mugshot? What about the camera mics Motorola is working on, where when the gun comes out of the holster, it activates that camera, and streams the video to the dispatcher?

"Broadband capability on police radios is very useful for radio programmers. Broadband is a larger pipeline, which means the radios can be programmed more efficiently. When you have to reprogram 4,000 radios, you can shoot out the reprogramming en masse similar to how the incremental computer operating system updates can be downloaded over broadband." POP25, Broadband not needed.

Am I been too harsh? I know it's a police site, not a radio site.

Matt
 
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jim202

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"Phase II is the P25 standard for narrow band communications." Um, so P25 P1 is wide band only?

"Unfortunately, P25 Phase I radios cannot be used on a P25 Phase II system, which means agencies that want to enjoy the benefits of Phase II must buy new radios." (Unless I'm mistaken) Technically true, but very miss-leading. They can be used, just all radios on the talkgroup will use P1. Almost sounds like it was written by Motorola.

"Designed for interoperability, the APX Dual mobile Radio operates on the 700 MHz and 800 MHz bands as well as VHF frequencies. This provides a single platform for police and fire radio interoperability. " Uhhhh, first, its any of two bands, and second, are they assuming that and police is on 7/800 and all fire on VHF? A dual band radio does not mean fire and LE can talk. What about (as many areas are) Fire and LE on the same band? What about TRSs? Never mind the fact that a dual band radio is useless if the operator is not trained, and does not have the right mindset.

I won't rant on the E word, but they talk about interop in the first part, then barely mention the issues that have to be addressed.

I am glad they make it clear that the smartphones apps were for office staff types only. They had me scared with visions of my local cops running around with Nextels.

"FirstNet systems will operate on Band 14 of the 700 MHz spectrum, which was previously used by VHF television signals." 700 is UHF, not VHF.

"That's not to say there aren't some benefits to broadband access on police radios. It's just that the benefits are not readily evident to the average officer." Ability to get rid of separate MDT modems? Have basic info pushed to the officers handheld, say, a mugshot? What about the camera mics Motorola is working on, where when the gun comes out of the holster, it activates that camera, and streams the video to the dispatcher?

"Broadband capability on police radios is very useful for radio programmers. Broadband is a larger pipeline, which means the radios can be programmed more efficiently. When you have to reprogram 4,000 radios, you can shoot out the reprogramming en masse similar to how the incremental computer operating system updates can be downloaded over broadband." POP25, Broadband not needed.

Am I been too harsh? I know it's a police site, not a radio site.

Matt
Let me add a couple of comments to expand on what you have said. First and probably the least understood is the ability to program radios over the air. Normally called OTAR for "Over The Air Reprogramming". In theory this is a fine package to be had in your trunking system. Works great for one or two radios. Problem is that there isn't enough free data time on the control channel for a whole lot of this type of programming of a radio on an active trunking system. It could take as long as 30 minutes to program a radio if there is a large number of channels (talkgroups) in the radio. While the radio is being programmed over the air, it is dead to the user. You might as well go read a paper or have a meal. Think about trying to program a whole fleet of radios this way. Remember that the data channel is only 9600 BPS on a P25 system. Just how much data can you flow over that? Plus you have to maintain normal system operation and traffic while the radio is being programmed.

Until the demise of Nextel and their PTT service, many fire and police on the street used their Nextel for off line communications between different people or groups of people. It took the non normal communications off the radio system and onto the private carrier's system. I know many departments that used it all the time for conversations they didn't want over the normal radio system. Some departments even used the Nextel phones as a backup to their normal trunking or repeater radio system.

You mentioned the nasty word "Interoperability" that is generally used between different agencies. Big problem with the so called "Interoperability" is that it relies on politics to function. Don't know how it works where you are, but on the average around the country, the department heads don't allow their people in the street to talk with anyone except their own. This even means like a police officer talking with police from another agency in the next town over. It's like you can lead a mule to the water, but you can't make them drink. In public safety, the older upper rank are just stuck in their old ways. Till these people leave their position, you will never get them to change their ways.

As for video being used by people in the field on a daily basis, yup it can be done. Problem is the current radio systems don't have the bandwidth to support it. Your talking the new LTE radio system you keep hearing talk about. That system will be designed for high bandwidth. Problem is FirstNet can't seem to get off square one and move forward. It's like a big boondoggle to suck up a huge salary, sit in their office all day long and never do anything. Sure there are a couple of systems on the air playing. but haven't heard much for results. then there is the equipment problem. With not much of a standard published yet, we have multiple vendors trying to get every body to use their equipment. You would think that at least an accepted standard would have come out by now.

Think about this. If 700 / 800 trunking systems are so expensive these days to cover just a county, how many sites will it take to cover the entire country to provide high bandwidth for data and video? Next question is who is going to pay for it? Agencies are strapped for funds right now. Trying to add another radio system for data and video on top of what they already have is going to be a major problem. Then there is the problem of towers. Most of the ones out there right now have been loaded to their limit and beyond.

I work with agencies all the time around the country on their radio systems. One of the major problems I run into all the time is the condition of their existing towers. Many of them are old, rusting, in poor shape and they want to add more antennas, coax cables and microwave onto them. No way is it going to happen. I have photos of the tubular cross members on some of these towers where the end that attaches to the tower is rusted through. If the cross members are like that, what condition is the tubular legs in? That's why I like to see all the new towers going up have solid rods for their legs. They also have welded, solid rods for all the cross bracing. These tower constructed this way can't rot out from the inside.

This country is fast coming to the point of massive spending just to maintain the towers they have. Many of them will have to be replaced in the very near future. If not, they are going to fall down on their own. The towers that rental companies like Crown and others want a high price to rent space on their towers. This again is a high cash outlay to public safety agencies each moth that are forced to use rental towers.

I am all ears if you have a solution for this pending disaster.
 

kayn1n32008

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Let me add a couple of comments to expand on what you have said. First and probably the least understood is the ability to program radios over the air. Normally called OTAR for "Over The Air Reprogramming".

OTAR is Over The Air Re-key used with a KMF to rekey encrypted radios with out having to touch ever radio

OTAP is Over The Air Programming


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ff-medic

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found this article in the police magazine, and found it has a lot of good information !?!?

Radios: Your Lifeline is Evolving - Article - POLICE Magazine

What do you think??

Radios: Your Lifeline is Evolving - Article - POLICE Magazine

One of the key goals of P25 was to make it easier for officers and other public safety personnel to communicate with each other. This goal was to be achieved through a uniform standard for digital public safety radios.
Yes. And to communicate, every agency in the location will have to be P25...if so much as one agency decides on a P25 system, while everybody else is Conventional Analog. State Operations / Emergency Services / Disaster coordiantion takes state and federal grants and builds a P25 system.....Unless agencys in that state go P25 alos......then no one......by two way analog radio...can talk to the State.

In Public Safety.......EVERYONE has to be on the same page. Everone has to be on the same page to coordinate - work together, and end the Emergency / Disaster / Problem.....in a timely manner. At teh scene of an emergency / disaster ; one agency on 700 Mhz, one agency on 800 Mhz, one agency on 159 Mhz, and one agency on 453 Mhz does not cut it.

So the United States Government come out with the P25 standard.....which I do not like or dislike, but in this case..... if you set a standard, then you should help pay for it. And nationwide.....that is alot of big bucks. Alot of moo-lah. Alot of Greenbacks. Alot of money to get everybody nationwide......on the same page.

"Hi. I am FEMA. I am here on the east coast to help you deal with this horrible hurricane that just went thorugh. You can talk to me on 770 mhz, in P25 mode."

"Well....Uhhh.....I don't have a 770 mhz radio, and I sure don't have P25. Can you talk to me on 159.800?"

"No. No I cannot. I am from the Federal Government.....and the new standard is P25."

Emergency service director shugs his shoulders and walks off



Unfortunately, P25 Phase I radios cannot be used on a P25 Phase II system, which means agencies that want to enjoy the benefits of Phase II must buy new radios.
If I am not mistaken.....narrow banding was mandatory, as set forth by the FCC. So would that not make Phase 2 mandatory also? Here we go again......More money in the pockets of radio manufacturers. I am not sure.....But I think I smell lobbiest here ( Comms people lobbying the FCC for Narrowbanding ?? )


The Unity XG-100P is a state-of-the-art multiband portable from Harris. It offers end-to-end encrypted digital voice communications and is P25 Phase II ready.
About a $6000 to $6500 dollar portable radio. Which is nice, and I know it is loaded with features. But unless you are an agency in Orange County, California - New York City - Austin, Texas...and you have a real nice budget to work with......the Unity is expensive. I can see where Harris radios and portables are needed....and I can see where they are not.

I can alos see them having to "rob the consumer" a little bit....because they have to justify those outrageous prices they charge for military contracts.

Consumers gets a portable radio for $2500 dollars, and the MIlitary gets the same radio for $7500 dollars. The GAO ( Government Accounting Office ) , some grey haired over weight Congressman, and the DOD IG office would have a coronary incident. Am I not right?

Some new portable police radios are now enabled for Bluetooth mics and there are a variety of products available to add Bluetooth to radios that don't have Bluetooth built in. [/QUOTE ]

:roll: Blue tooth. That is real security right there.

Still, there is no universal acceptance of Bluetooth for mission critical communications.
Ya think?


Kenwood's latest Phase II portable is the TK-5410D. It offers enhanced microprocessing for coverage of the entire 700 MHz and 800 MHz voice bands and MIL-STD 810 toughness. Some of the features include: 100 zones with 1,024 channels, a backlit dot matrix LCD, 16-character alphanumeric aliases, a three-digit sub-display, and several encryption keys.
Kenwood TK-5410D Phase 2 Portable Radio K3

$2,300.00 Thats a more reasonable price.


FF - Medic !!!
 
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ff-medic

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OTAR is Over The Air Re-key used with a KMF to rekey encrypted radios with out having to touch ever radio

OTAP is Over The Air Programming
When I was in the Military.....overseas ; we used to send a signal, an ERF....to key up the SINGARS radios for the same "scan sequence" among other things. Is "OTAP" / "OTAR" possible, without another radio incidently / maliciously / accidentlly sucking up the programming information?

SINCGARS

"ERF" stands for ECCM Remote Fill. Upon opening a frequency hopping net, the Net Control Station must electronically transmit some data to the net radios.

FF - Medic !!!
 
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