Radio related navigation thing.

[MUTNAV]

Apparently GPS spoofing (meaconing) is becoming more sophisticated...

I'm thinking it will come here at some point.

Just a little more doom and gloom to add in, (or something to just be aware of).

Electronic GPS ‘spoofing’ behind civilian jet navigation failures over Iraq

False electronic signals imitating satellite data from Global Position System satellites recently caused complete navigation failures for 12 aircraft flights near Iran, according to a private aircraft security group.

www.washingtontimes.com

Thanks
Joel

 

[BinaryMode]

This is EXACTLY why I don't trust GPS. Especially since the president does have authority to shut it down if need be. Though, there are of course other GNSS out there that many devices are also using like a cellphone. The over reliance on GPS is not good and makes sense no one should rely on it. If you're an outdoors person then learn how to use UTM and maps... This underscores to me why it's so important to still have VORs on the ground as an additional "check" mechanism in the INS. Heck of it is, I bet most commercial pilots can't pull off the autopilot at cruise if need be...

Perhaps GPS or any GNSS needs to be second in line with other augmentation for the INS where VOR comes in first. If both don't agree then GPS/GNSS is disabled. Or at least not used in the INS corrections. For God sakes, the Apollo missions never needed GPS for their INS... It can be done...

What may be even scarier is that a no good doer could spoof ADS-B...

 

[MUTNAV]

What I was surprised about is the automatic updating of the INS with GPS without intervention from the pilots, I think military INS's have always had the ability to update, but automatically, and without cross-checking the other navigation inputs (llike you suggest) seems like a poor design choice., and now it's being taken advantage of, Jamming a navigation beacon is one thing, Meaconing is different (like war starting different).

Thanks
Joel

 

[dlwtrunked]

This is EXACTLY why I don't trust GPS. Especially since the president does have authority to shut it down if need be. Though, there are of course other GNSS out there that many devices are also using like a cellphone. The over reliance on GPS is not good and makes sense no one should rely on it. If you're an outdoors person then learn how to use UTM and maps... This underscores to me why it's so important to still have VORs on the ground as an additional "check" mechanism in the INS. Heck of it is, I bet most commercial pilots can't pull off the autopilot at cruise if need be...

Perhaps GPS or any GNSS needs to be second in line with other augmentation for the INS where VOR comes in first. If both don't agree then GPS/GNSS is disabled. Or at least not used in the INS corrections. For God sakes, the Apollo missions never needed GPS for their INS... It can be done...

What may be even scarier is that a no good doer could spoof ADS-B...

No VOR's over the oceans or in many other areas. And GNSS (which consist of U.S. GPS, Russian GLONASS, European Galileo, and Chinese Beidou) are by far the most accurate means of getting a position. VORs are going away and multiple VORs are required for position unless one is a VOR-DME. VORs are useless for ground navigation. Try receiving a VOR anywhere on the ground--good luck as unless you are close to one, you will not. Maps do not in general tell you where you are unless you are at a marked position. And UTM or MGRS does not remedy anything as it just in another way to identify a positions and has its own approximations. No other means (your cellphone uses GNSS) will give any thing even near the accuracy of GNSS. And if they shut down, you have far worse problems. The Apollo mission used the stars to navigate--try doing that in daylight and it was not not really that accurate. Military systems use fiber0-optic gyros or MEMS devices with GNSS satellite updating to neccessarily re-calibrate them (do no GNSS, they will loose accuracy over time).

 

[mmckenna]

This has been an ongoing discussion for a long time, not a new thing.

There was some talk at one point of bringing back a "LORAN-C lite" type service for critical areas.
At one point the military was playing around with a service that could determine location based on local broadcast transmitters.

The nice thing is that technology and science march on. There are people always looking at these challenges and always developing new solutions, that's what (most) humans are good at.

GPS is handy, and I use it frequently, but I also keep a few paper maps in my truck.

Somehow I suspect I'll survive….

 

[MUTNAV]

No VOR's over the oceans or in many other areas. And GNSS (which consist of U.S. GPS, Russian GLONASS, European Galileo, and Chinese Beidou) are by far the most accurate means of getting a position. VORs are going away and multiple VORs are required for position unless one is a VOR-DME. VORs are useless for ground navigation. Try receiving a VOR anywhere on the ground--good luck as unless you are close to one, you will not. Maps do not in general tell you where you are unless you are at a marked position. And UTM or MGRS does not remedy anything as it just in another way to identify a positions and has its own approximations. No other means (your cellphone uses GNSS) will give any thing even near the accuracy of GNSS. And if they shut down, you have far worse problems. The Apollo mission used the stars to navigate--try doing that in daylight and it was not not really that accurate. Military systems use fiber0-optic gyros or MEMS devices with GNSS satellite updating to neccessarily re-calibrate them (do no GNSS, they will loose accuracy over time).

I don't think the objection is over accuracy, GPS is accurate enough for surveying.

The problem that I (we) are thinking of, is the vulnerabilities that come with the new system, and if they outweigh the benefits of a long established and operational set of systems.

A good comparison is flight controls. if I remember correctly, one of the 737 Max's issue was pilots not knowing how to over-ride the automatic systems, so when a sensor failed, the automatic systems caused an aircraft to crash?

A difference is that automatic communications and navigation systems seem more likely to be exploited by the "Bad Guys", automatic radio transmissions may be helpful for maintenance purposes, but I'm not sure that automatic-unattended transmissions are a great idea.

There is even talk about how it MAY be possible to exploit 5th generation fighters advanced radar returns to "Hack" an aircraft.

I guess my overall point is that we seem to abandon working items, for 'better' systems, sometimes the old ways are best.

Thanks
Joel

 

[dlwtrunked]

Understood. But VORs are also unattended automatic system (I have been to many and only once saw a person at one doing maintence.) There is no former land navigation system for ground vehicles for which to say old ways are best unless you mean maps and one can still use them anyway if once wanted to. And for hiking in the woods, besides GNSS (satellites), there is not other good way that is even close to being really a good way. Yes, I do have a compass and take it with me in case I get lost and other means fail, but that is not really navigating as I will just use it to go in the opposite direction from which I started.

 

[n0xvz]

If you're an outdoors person then learn how to use UTM and maps...

Why UTM/MGRS specifically? Don't get me wrong, I'm a maps guy and have taught map reading to hundreds of people. I think lat/long is probably more practical with many of the maps the average person can obtain. Plus, no special tools are needed.

 

[MUTNAV]

Understood. But VORs are also unattended automatic system (I have been to many and only once saw a person at one doing maintence.) There is no former land navigation system for ground vehicles for which to say old ways are best unless you mean maps and one can still use them anyway if once wanted to. And for hiking in the woods, besides GNSS (satellites), there is not other good way that is even close to being really a good way. Yes, I do have a compass and take it with me in case I get lost and other means fail, but that is not really navigating as I will just use it to go in the opposite direction from which I started.

We aren't really talking about cars and trucks... But yes, maps are really good... I don't even really consider them "old ways", compasses don't help me much except as you mentioned, to take a bearing when leaving the vehicle in case of getting disoriented and needing to return (setting the pointer thing on the compass helps in this). Also helpful is a watch...

The big key I think is to always have a pretty good idea of where you are to begin with, so that errors are detectable, a pilot flying 40 nm off course clearly didn't (IMHO).

It's nice to think that people will always remember the old ways of navigating by map, compass, timer etc,.. In case they have to resort to them.

But keep in mind that children (and adults now) sometimes aren't able to read an analog clock or read (or write) cursive, its a set of skills that if not learned to begin with, or aren't practiced (even a little) will go away.

Thanks
Joel

 

[MUTNAV]

Why UTM/MGRS specifically? Don't get me wrong, I'm a maps guy and have taught map reading to hundreds of people. I think lat/long is probably more practical with many of the maps the average person can obtain. Plus, no special tools are needed.

Unless military and using military maps (or doing historical things), not,much point in UTM and MGRS.

Even Lat/Long isn't practical for me without other aids around, I mostly need just distance (or time) and direction.

It's nice that you teach navigation... I thought it was just me, but apparently my brother and sister had their kids plan a trip to an amusement park, but it was up to them to do the navigation (with maps) and give them driving directions (as a teaching oppurtunity). My technique/ test was a little different, I wen to a safe / enclosed park, and handed a map and flip phone to my kids, they had to find their way back to where we were staying (after being left alone, it was really easy, but I needed to see if they were comfortable with it). On the other hand, navigating IN an amusement park with a map was much more of a challenge.


Thanks
Joel

 

[GlobalNorth]

Why UTM/MGRS specifically? Don't get me wrong, I'm a maps guy and have taught map reading to hundreds of people. I think lat/long is probably more practical with many of the maps the average person can obtain. Plus, no special tools are needed.

Some of us are former military and use what is most comfortable for us. The vast majority will not need a lensatic compass for navigation, but I have one in every vehicle [all are 4wd and routinely see wilderness travel].

 

[n0xvz]

Some of us are former military and use what is most comfortable for us. The vast majority will not need a lensatic compass for navigation, but I have one in every vehicle [all are 4wd and routinely see wilderness travel].

I'm former military and comfortable using MGRS or geocoords (and have taught people to use both). While I still think geocoords are more practical, it's probably a good idea to use whichever system local LE/FD/SAR agencies use. YMMV...

But then, I don't think many of us will ever experience meaconing. I'd be more worried about the reinstatement of Selective Availability, although I think that's unlikely as well.

 

[mmckenna]

it's probably a good idea to use whichever system local LE/FD/SAR agencies use. YMMV...

This is an important statement.

Any good public safety dispatcher will likely understand to pull up Google Maps and type in a lat/lon and go from there. 911 system will usually handle it, also.

Maidenhead is a no-go with google maps. Telling a dispatcher your MGRS coordinates isn't going to go much better.

Many dispatch centers really like the "What Three Words" system, as it is really easy for people to figure out and for dispatchers to look up, but you need the app and a working smartphone. Hell of a lot easier than reading a string of numbers over the phone/radio.

If someone is just screwing around with their ham buddies, then use whatever you want. If you want help in an emergency, using a system that is better understood by the responders is a better idea.

But then, I don't think many of us will ever experience meaconing. I'd be more worried about the reinstatement of Selective Availability, although I think that's unlikely as well.

I'd be curious to know if turning SA back on would make much of a difference since modern GPS modules will handle other systems.

 

[GlobalNorth]

I'm former military and comfortable using MGRS or geocoords (and have taught people to use both). While I still think geocoords are more practical, it's probably a good idea to use whichever system local LE/FD/SAR agencies use. YMMV...

But then, I don't think many of us will ever experience meaconing. I'd be more worried about the reinstatement of Selective Availability, although I think that's unlikely as well.

My time in the military was sans the acronym / term "GPS".

I spent two decades in LE and their concept of landnav was go to the 'hundred block of xxxxxxxxx street or milepost xx.x and go 2.5 miles bearing left, until you come to a stump, veer left for 4 miles, look for the rusted out truck, and get out and walk about ten minutes.

No one in the comm center knew what the heck WGS84 was, had no interest in Maidenhead, what UTC/Zulu time might be, etc.
When I tried to teach them the basics, I might as well have been teaching partial differential equations to the Aztecs, all in Manadarin.

 

[dlwtrunked]

I work with the local sheriff SAR team as one of the radio people for the comms trailer; the county GIS people are present at every operation. Local SAR team uses UTM. At a sensors lab, I was in the aviation team and was their expert on using Kalman filtering with GPS, and INS (Inertial Navigations Systems). So our experiences are different. And funny point, earlier I actually once taught partial differential equations (actually Computational Methods in Partial Differential Equations) as a college professor (but not to Aztecs in Mandarin, but sometimes I think it would not have been harder as I found most in the class were totally lost when complex numbers got involved). I once had an often cited reference on GPS accuracy web page (Google on the same search "David L. Wilson" "GPS accuracy") but that is long gone as other interests prevented me from keeping it up to date. But I still experiment with uBlox ZED-F9P receivers that have GPS, GLONASS, Galileo and Beidou in them and every so often check their accuracy with month long data collects comparing combinations of systems. I even look at the signals with an SDR and 4 foot satellite dish (see attachment)--so hobbies sometimes merge.

 

[BinaryMode]

No VOR's over the oceans or in many other areas.

How do you think planes navigated circa 1960s and whatnot prior to the use of "Sluggers" in Operation Desert Storm...?

And GNSS (which consist of U.S. GPS, Russian GLONASS, European Galileo, and Chinese Beidou) are by far the most accurate means of getting a position. VORs are going away and multiple VORs are required for position unless one is a VOR-DME. VORs are useless for ground navigation.

I'm referring to air navigation, not land. I did mention that one should know how to use a map... I specially mentioned UTM though. And my argument here is that VORs should NOT be taken off line due to the fact you can't rely on GPS - and never should!. Besides, I don't think VORs are going off line but NDBs are. I think...

 

[BinaryMode]

I work with the local sheriff SAR team as one of the radio people for the comms trailer; the county GIS people are present at every operation. Local SAR team uses UTM. At a sensors lab, I was in the aviation team and was their expert on using Kalman filtering with GPS, and INS (Inertial Navigations Systems). So our experiences are different. And funny point, earlier I actually once taught partial differential equations (actually Computational Methods in Partial Differential Equations) as a college professor (but not to Aztecs in Mandarin, but sometimes I think it would not have been harder as I found most in the class were totally lost when complex numbers got involved). I once had an often cited reference on GPS accuracy web page (Google on the same search "David L. Wilson" "GPS accuracy") but that is long gone as other interests prevented me from keeping it up to date. But I still experiment with uBlox ZED-F9P receivers that have GPS, GLONASS, Galileo and Beidou in them and every so often check their accuracy with month long data collects comparing combinations of systems. I even look at the signals with an SDR and 4 foot satellite dish (see attachment)--so hobbies sometimes merge.

Cool stuff. I have a small cheap uBlox GPS that I used to keep time on my computer.

 

[dlwtrunked]

I'm referring to air navigation, not land. I did mention that one should know how to use a map... I specially mentioned UTM though. And my argument here is that VORs should NOT be taken off line due to the fact you can't rely on GPS - and never should!. Besides, I don't think VORs are going off line but NDBs are. I think...

I do not mean that there is a plan to eliminate existing VORs but rather new VORs are not being put up in the U.S. and ones have gone off line (but some converted to VOR-DME). Note I distinquish between a VOR and more useful VOR-DME. Indeed NDBs are disappearing; often when one fails, if a significant failure, it is not repaired unless it was part of a significant airways navigation. My local airport has a NDB and I have been told it is only a matter of time. The number of U.S. NDB's has significantly decreased (increasing the chance of hearing a foreign one, particularly the Canadian ones, although I hear also less of them).

 

[MUTNAV]

Actually I think they are removing many VORs and just leaving a limeted number in existence (just-in-case).

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/ato/service_units/techops/navservices/gbng/vormon

Thanks
Joel

 

[BinaryMode]

Here's a good PDF from CAP. https://www.google.com/url?q=https:...sQFnoECAsQBg&usg=AOvVaw2UR_plJf6oGxMZUAAyfLuz