It all comes down to (1) Proper operation by the users (Talk -across- the mike, don't be a mouthbreather, lean into the mike at least a little in the cab!) And (2) The knowledge and ability of who sets it up. It is very easy to simply program, install, and walk away. Put the time and effort into it, and it is crisp and clear.
Railroads and NXDN
- Thread starter PJH
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kayn1n32008
ØÆSØ Say it, say 'ENCRYPTION'
LMFAO. When done right, digital audio sounds very decent.
Our P25 repeater, sounds better than our analogue repeater. PLUS no beeps and boops, talking controllers, static, picket fencing or wildly varying audio levels with in those that have taken the time to set their audio profiles. Granted that is a amateur repeater, but it is a Quantar, and we are all using either Kenwood NX/VP or XTS/XTL radios.
Ah look here, another scanner user that thinks they are a LMR SME. 🙄🙄🙄
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What radio are you using? During periods of skip I have heard NXDN Metrolinx/GO Transit rail control across Lake Erie. On my Icom R30 the audio quality was phenomenal. The NS police flamethrower in Chicago is NXDN and it sounds fine perfectly fine as well.Long thread,
AFAIC, if the AAR would of wanted to switch over, it would of been done by now. Look how long has it been, what, 20 or so years? Wasn't it in the middle 20's (around 2005 or so) when this proposed change surfaced?
I've heard (literately and otherwise) all these 'digital' modes are nothing but a joke, nothing but problems and the audio quality is usually terrible with a few exceptions.
The only carrier around WNY that is using it is GO Transit in Ontario Canada. When the signal comes in strong enough, the audio level is ridiculously over modulated and next to impossible to understand. There are plenty of assigned AAR channels, there is no shortage of them which removes the need of more flexibility that Business & PS band transmissions need.
IOW,s there is little need for it, it's nothing but a cash cow for the radio manufactures clear and simple. The AAR got sold a bill of goods. And I'd bet they realized it long ago.
My ears tell me different where I live. I'm talking about more than on type of digital.
How much stock in Kenwood do you guys own???
How much stock in Kenwood do you guys own???
None. Don't own any Icom stock either.
I can only assume that whoever you're listening to didn't do a proper set up, or there's something wrong with your setup. I have no trouble listening to P25, DMR or NXDN; they all sound just fine. For that matter, D-Star and Yaesu System Fusion work fine, too.
kayn1n32008
ØÆSØ Say it, say 'ENCRYPTION'
So am I. I have been using g NXDN, P25 and DMR for more years than I care to think of. Both professionally and on ham bands.
LMFAO. Zero. I don't own stock in any LMR manufacturer.
kayn1n32008
ØÆSØ Say it, say 'ENCRYPTION'
Due to voice payload, various modes have different voice fidelity, when audio/AGC profiles are set up properly, 12.5kHz digital modes(NXDN Narrow, P25 phase 1 and Fusion) sound better than analogue under most circumstances. They all benefit from FEC, no picket fencing, no static and are usable to signal levels than render analogue unreadable.
Aside from the hammy specific modes, are easily encrypted with AES256.
mmckenna
I ♥ Ø
I agree. I don't own any Icom or Kenwood stock, but I do run a Kenwood NexEdge (NXDN) trunked system.
I suspect the issue here is the receiving equipment.
I've had 14 years of playing with NXDN in a professional environment, and played with all the settings.
The person setting up the radio (TX -and- RX) needs to have some skills and knowledge, and that's what is usually missing in the ham/hobby side of things.
I ran a Kenwood NX-700 VHF and Kenwood NX-900 800MHz side by side. Same radio, different bands. Both hooked to identical speakers in the same mobile environment. VHF was analog 12.5KHz, and 800 was NXDN digital 12.5KHz. Same dispatcher, same microphone, etc...
NXDN sounded better than analog. Cleaner/easier to understand.
But that wasn't a scanner, and it took some effort to set up the audio correctly.
While railroad may not use it, one of the nice benefits of NXDN (as with other digital modes) is that GPS location data can be tacked on to the voice packets, as can radio ID's/Aliases.
Railroad had to go narrow band analog, and some of the older gear needed to be replaced. Having a path forward into a digital mode was a wise choice, even if it doesn't get adopted anytime soon. Attrition rate of radios can vary greatly, so spreading this out over many years makes sense.
kayn1n32008
ØÆSØ Say it, say 'ENCRYPTION'
100% agree.
Yep. Digital voice is nothing like analogue. It's not just programming frequencies, RID and TG. Audio is a major component of setting up a digital system, because of the difference in how the audio is processed before transmitting it.
This is my experience as well. Professionally I've used analogue, DMR, NXDN and P25.
Once you use a digital mode, professionally, analogue is tiring to listen to. Beeps, boops, talking controllers, MDC bursts, squelch crashes, picket fencing and static take incredible energy to try and listen to what you actually need to hear. Voice.
Once you strip all the other crap away, it's the voice you need to hear. Digital voice modes make that MUCH easier. Plus, you will get consistant voice quality from a digital transmission right down to signal strengths that will render analogue unintelligible. All the benefits, with out all the other crap inherent with analogue systems. I'd never use an analogue radio again if I had it my way, and most of my amateur radio PTT's are P25 now.
Bingo. You can not compare a scanner or SDR, to an actual subscriber radio on the system.
There is no comparison between analog and digital in loud and noisy environments, digital is better. No one was sold a bill of goods, the railroads had been testing with P25 in the mid 2000's but there are royalties on P25, so the RR's worked closely with NXDN manufactures that were willing to listen to their input, unlike the manufacture of P25 Clean Cab radios.
Here is a test with full throttle chain saw six feet from the radio mic. The recording is P25, but set up correctly NXDN can do close to the same, both are using AMBE Vocoders. Sorry I had to zip it to upload it.
No I don't own stock in JVCKenwood, but I have worked for a KW dealer for over 25 years.
Jim
Here is a test with full throttle chain saw six feet from the radio mic. The recording is P25, but set up correctly NXDN can do close to the same, both are using AMBE Vocoders. Sorry I had to zip it to upload it.
No I don't own stock in JVCKenwood, but I have worked for a KW dealer for over 25 years.
Jim
I recently rode on the Cumbres and Toltec Scenic (CTSR) railroad between Chama, New Mexico and Antonito, Colorado. I brought along my Icom IC-R2 handheld scanner to listen to the train communications. Prior to my trip, I found several frequencies for that railroad in the Colorado portion of Radio Reference. When I arrived at the train depot, I met with one of the dispatchers. He informed me that I would not be able to hear any communications because they use the Icom IDAS format. I did some research but still have questions. I believe that the IDAS format is actually NXDN, but Icom just refers to it as IDAS, is this correct? If I purchase and install the NXDN upgrade on my BCD 996P2 scanner, will I be able to monitor the train communications for this railroad?
IDAS is NXDN. Unless it's encrypted, you can monitor it. That dispatcher as many do, confuse digital with encrypted. iCom calls it IDAS, JVC/Kenwood calls it Nexedge.
Something a lot of folks aren't aware of, the main reason Railroads went with NXDN / IDAS is because at the time, it was the only commercially available format that could do 6.25 out of the box.
I believe that still holds true today?
(And interestingly, as opposed to analog 25 v/s 12.5, you get more range with 6.25 NXDN than you do with 12.5)
I believe that still holds true today?
(And interestingly, as opposed to analog 25 v/s 12.5, you get more range with 6.25 NXDN than you do with 12.5)
The Cumbres & Toltec uses NXDN/IDAS. I know the radio vendor who helped set up the system. The railroad went digital to extend the audible range of their repeaters after the narrow-banding mandated in 2013. Plus, the NXDN system also is used to carry digital GPS location information of trains, railroad equipment, etc. Their NXDN system has been operating for over a decade.
The only RR in range of my location (and that is in the evening, not during the day) are a couple of Toronto passenger/commuter lines that use NXDN. I'm right on the cliff apparently, when the signal is strong enough, the audio is grossly over modulated to a point it's hard to understand the xmission. 
So much for "didn't do a proper set up".
FWIW, there is a (very) local organization (not RR) that switched to digital (not NXDN) and their transmissions are mostly ok. Somewhat 'louder', than everyone else (analog), but no issue understanding them.
So much for "didn't do a proper set up".
FWIW, there is a (very) local organization (not RR) that switched to digital (not NXDN) and their transmissions are mostly ok. Somewhat 'louder', than everyone else (analog), but no issue understanding them.
A steel mill switching railroad in my area uses DMR on an AAR channel 10. I bought a TYT MD-390G to listen to it. The NXDN rail talk I've heard was much better quality, both voice clarity as well as volume.The only RR in range of my location (and that is in the evening, not during the day) are a couple of Toronto passenger/commuter lines that use NXDN. I'm right on the cliff apparently, when the signal is strong enough, the audio is grossly over modulated to a point it's hard to understand the xmission.
So much for "didn't do a proper set up".
FWIW, there is a (very) local organization (not RR) that switched to digital (not NXDN) and their transmissions are mostly ok. Somewhat 'louder', than everyone else (analog), but no issue understanding them.
RR frequencies are VHF, what/how is this UHF radio receive that???
How is the audio level itself; louder, the same, softer?
The 'local' I was referring to is our city Zoo. They did erect a 20' (or so) mast with a antenna , so I'm sure reception in some areas I'd bet was the problem. Some buildings are probably close to 100 years old (stone construction).
Still, AFAIC, they got sold a 'bill of goods'. AKA 'new and improved'.
How is the audio level itself; louder, the same, softer?
The 'local' I was referring to is our city Zoo. They did erect a 20' (or so) mast with a antenna , so I'm sure reception in some areas I'd bet was the problem. Some buildings are probably close to 100 years old (stone construction).
Still, AFAIC, they got sold a 'bill of goods'. AKA 'new and improved'.
The MD-390G is available in both VHF and UHF models. The DMR audio had lower volume and voices sounded muddier than any NXDN audio I've heard. There's also a large NS classification yard near me whose car department uses NXDN. Some voices sound overmodulated while others sound fine, but that probably has more to do with radio etiquette than anything.RR frequencies are VHF, what/how is this UHF radio receive that???
How is the audio level itself; louder, the same, softer?
The 'local' I was referring to is our city Zoo. They did erect a 20' (or so) mast with a antenna , so I'm sure reception in some areas I'd bet was the problem. Some buildings are probably close to 100 years old (stone construction).
Still, AFAIC, they got sold a 'bill of goods'. AKA 'new and improved'.
mmckenna
I ♥ Ø
Having run both DMR and NXDN side by side (systems that I've set up and tweaked), this is true.
Individual radio settings can impact that. The Kenwood NXDN radios have several audio filters and audio settings that will greatly impact audio. In an application like this, radios are likely all programmed from the same file, so audio filter settings are likely identical. What varies is the audio accessories used. There are audio accessory specific settings that vary from type to type and need to be programmed correctly, or set up via menu if the user interface allows that. And, as you stated, radio etiquette is a big part of this.
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