Re: Future paid Uniden upgrades as a viable income source.

gary123

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I am hoping that Uniden will see that offering new and upgraded features for existing and even older hardware is a good source of future revenue over and above hardware support and improvement for the end user. The SDS waterfall option is rapidly gaining in popularity as end users see its advantages and potential. It is a long desired option for locating and identifying new and unknown signals. Paired with Close Call the waterfall reopens a practical method of signal hunting and identification. This increases the users participation and enjoyment of the product. In addition it motivates end users to upgrade to newer and more flexible hardware to have these options this results in new sales and repeat customers.

At $20 a pop this is not a major expense for the end user but when multiplied by 10,000-20,000+ potential sales across the globe it easily recoups the cost of paying a 'couple' of coders and research people to work on these projects. Financially speaking investing $50,000 for a $200,000 - $500,000 return is good business sense and the type of thing investors and stock holders like to see. Not to again mention the customer satisfaction on having their hardware constantly being improved and supported.

The really nice thing about offering potential new options and purchasable features is that Uniden does not need to do the research on what is viable or desirable. Sites such as this one are full of customers who have wish lists and a broad membership who can practically discuss in advance the potential pluses and minuses of a feature. All this before any investment needs to be done on Unidens part. Free R&D who would say no to that? All Uniden needs is someone to read the posts and pass on the best/ wanted ideas.

Yet another revenue source is Uniden is aware that many upgrades like adding new modes such as dPMR or TETRA would be usable across several platforms and not limited to the one the code was originally compiled for. This expands the market for a upgrade from one product to potentially the entire product line.

We are aware there is always going to be consumers who do not wish to invest in upgrades and even may expect that they should be free. In the real world this is just not a realistic position. If this were the case then everyone one would still be using 4 channel crystal scanners or watching off air TV on black and white sets using Cathode Ray tubes. A great lesson has been learned with the waterfall upgrade. Offer a good desirable upgrade at a reasonable price and the customers want it and will buy it. Some will even buy it just to have the option and the have the most flexable hardware possible.

For myself the $20 investment paid for itself the second I saw the waterfall on my own hardware. I happily spent the money and like the majority will do so again for a feature that is wanted or even sounds cool.

Let the discussion begin...
 

hiegtx

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I am hoping that Uniden will see that offering new and upgraded features for existing and even older hardware is a good source of future revenue over and above hardware support and improvement for the end user. The SDS waterfall option is rapidly gaining in popularity as end users see its advantages and potential. It is a long desired option for locating and identifying new and unknown signals. Paired with Close Call the waterfall reopens a practical method of signal hunting and identification. This increases the users participation and enjoyment of the product. In addition it motivates end users to upgrade to newer and more flexible hardware to have these options this results in new sales and repeat customers.

At $20 a pop this is not a major expense for the end user but when multiplied by 10,000-20,000+ potential sales across the globe it easily recoups the cost of paying a 'couple' of coders and research people to work on these projects. Financially speaking investing $50,000 for a $200,000 - $500,000 return is good business sense and the type of thing investors and stock holders like to see. Not to again mention the customer satisfaction on having their hardware constantly being improved and supported.

The really nice thing about offering potential new options and purchasable features is that Uniden does not need to do the research on what is viable or desirable. Sites such as this one are full of customers who have wish lists and a broad membership who can practically discuss in advance the potential pluses and minuses of a feature. All this before any investment needs to be done on Unidens part. Free R&D who would say no to that? All Uniden needs is someone to read the posts and pass on the best/ wanted ideas.

Yet another revenue source is Uniden is aware that many upgrades like adding new modes such as dPMR or TETRA would be usable across several platforms and not limited to the one the code was originally compiled for. This expands the market for a upgrade from one product to potentially the entire product line.

We are aware there is always going to be consumers who do not wish to invest in upgrades and even may expect that they should be free. In the real world this is just not a realistic position. If this were the case then everyone one would still be using 4 channel crystal scanners or watching off air TV on black and white sets using Cathode Ray tubes. A great lesson has been learned with the waterfall upgrade. Offer a good desirable upgrade at a reasonable price and the customers want it and will buy it. Some will even buy it just to have the option and the have the most flexable hardware possible.

For myself the $20 investment paid for itself the second I saw the waterfall on my own hardware. I happily spent the money and like the majority will do so again for a feature that is wanted or even sounds cool.

Let the discussion begin...
A 'fee for additional features', such as was the case for ProVoice, DMR, NXDN, & now the waterfall option, would be a reasonable option as opposed to having to buy yet another scanner for such a feature.

But firmware updates to correct, or improve, function of current features, should remain free.
 

K2KOH

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I agree and also disagree. The waterfall option, INMHO, should have been a freebie. Waterfall displays alerady come with a lot of ham radios that cost a little less or around the same as the SDS100 or SDS200. Upgrades for the modes I understand since there are licensing fees. Again, just my opinion.
 

RaleighGuy

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I agree and also disagree. The waterfall option, INMHO, should have been a freebie. Waterfall displays alerady come with a lot of ham radios that cost a little less or around the same as the SDS100 or SDS200. Upgrades for the modes I understand since there are licensing fees. Again, just my opinion.
Not saying I disagree, just listening/reading all the thoughts, while you mention licensing fees you don't mention developmental or coding costs the company has with getting the FW ready for changes, shouldn't a company be allowed to recoup costs related to non-licensed upgrades and changes like the work that went into the Waterfall add-on?

But firmware updates to correct, or improve, function of current features, should remain free.

Just curious, and agree with you about current features in firmware, but how do we define current vs new? The scanner currently does P25 P2, but no scanner decodes a TDMA control channel (like Harris is using on the new Duke Trunked System) if they write new code and add this new ability would you consider it new or a fix for current features? That really isn't a current feature, since no scanner has is it (though a number of SDR software options can), but it is related to a current feature of Phase 2 decoding. Should the company be allowed to recoup costs related to the coding and development of this?
 

K2KOH

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Not saying I disagree, just listening/reading all the thoughts, while you mention licensing fees you don't mention developmental or coding costs the company has with getting the FW ready for changes, shouldn't a company be allowed to recoup costs related to non-licensed upgrades and changes like the work that went into the Waterfall add-on?



Just curious, and agree with you about current features in firmware, but how do we define current vs new? The scanner currently does P25 P2, but no scanner decodes a TDMA control channel (like Harris is using on the new Duke Trunked System) if they write new code and add this new ability would you consider it new or a fix for current features? That really isn't a current feature, since no scanner has is it (though a number of SDR software options can), but it is related to a current feature of Phase 2 decoding. Should the company be allowed to recoup costs related to the coding and development of this?
Very good question, considering the scanner already came with the feature. I would think Uniden would have to cough up another licensing fee to Harris which to me would justify it. The waterfall..that technology has been around for a while, and honestly should also have been in the original SDS100, and definitely in the 200. It depends on what they come up. Twenty bucks isn’t a big deal, but I’m also looking at the bigger picture of the cost of the radio bare. I don’t see Uniden spending that much on coding since it doesn’t seem like they dedicate too many resources to the scanning part. But again, MHO :)
 

RaleighGuy

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The waterfall..that technology has been around for a while, and honestly should also have been in the original SDS100, and definitely in the 200. :)

Again, you say should have been, but it wasn't, and you agreed to buy it without it. If you buy a car without HD radio, and later say it should have had it because the technology has been around, should the car dealer then give it to you for free?

Totally agree with you, it's not about the waterfall or the $20, it is, however, about what we might see in the future and the continued cost.
 

Rq17954z

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The upgrades for the waterfall sounds fine for older models. Personally the new models should have it standard. You can find them as standard features on many receivers today.
 

gary123

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There are some good points on if a feature is an fix or new feature/upgrade. My dividing line would be. Does the unit currently do it if so then fixing the proper decode or functionality should be free. If the unit does not do it then its fair to charge for the new added mode or set of functions. Again all this should depend on how complex and how much research is needed to identify the format of the signal input then integrate it into the existing code or add it as a new mode. The TDMA control channel is a good example. Again in my opinion this would be a new mode and thus subject to being purchased. The cost for the mode should be about the same as the waterfall.

A big deciding factor should also be how much is the missing mode used? Lets look at dPMR as an example. It is used a lot. The code is reported to already be in the FW. According to Wiki


It is public domain and therefore not subject to licensing in NA. I would be fine paying around $20 to have the mode available to my unit(s). Back to the TDMA control channels eventually there will be more and more systems using them. Paying a nominal fee to have the future compatibility is something many will be ok with provided it is not excessive. RalieghGuy makes an excellent point in post #8 expecting anyone to provide free backawrds compatible upgrades is not a reasonable expectation.
 

RaleighGuy

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A big deciding factor should also be how much is the missing mode used? Lets look at dPMR as an example. It is used a lot. The code is reported to already be in the FW. According to Wiki


It is public domain and therefore not subject to licensing in NA. I would be fine paying around $20 to have the mode available to my unit(s).

But, if they decide to offer it here and I think they should, why should they lower the price from what is currently being charged, regardless of how much it is used, shouldn't they be allowed to charge (in USD) exactly what they are charging now? If they lowered the price for US scanners the EU scanner owners may feel this is unfair.


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K2KOH

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But, if they decide to offer it here and I think they should, why should they lower the price from what is currently being charged, regardless of how much it is used, shouldn't they be allowed to charge (in USD) exactly what they are charging now? If they lowered the price for US scanners the EU scanner owners may feel this is unfair.


View attachment 154032
In truth, bottom line is Uniden is in business to make money.
 

RaleighGuy

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In truth, bottom line is Uniden is in business to make money.

Exactly, and just to make one more point, no company is required to provide the same products in all countries. I don't see anyone saying McDonald's "should" offer chicken and spaghetti here in the US for about $3, as they do in the Philippines. Just saying!

Capture1.PNG
 

hiegtx

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Just curious, and agree with you about current features in firmware, but how do we define current vs new? The scanner currently does P25 P2, but no scanner decodes a TDMA control channel (like Harris is using on the new Duke Trunked System) if they write new code and add this new ability would you consider it new or a fix for current features? That really isn't a current feature, since no scanner has is it (though a number of SDR software options can), but it is related to a current feature of Phase 2 decoding. Should the company be allowed to recoup costs related to the coding and development of this?
In my opinion, for whatever it's worth, is that a firmware tweak to handle the TDMA control channels would fall under the 'refining current features', and should not be a paid upgrade. The SDS series scanners are promoted as handling simulcast and P25 Phase II systems. The TDMA control channel is simply a variation of the more prevalent, non-TDMA control channel, P25 systems. So, if it enables reception of a variation of a system type already supported, it should not be a pay-to-play upgrade. DMR and NXDN are completely different types than the P25 systems the scanners were designed for, so the optional, paid, upgrade is not a surprise to add those types

Looking at your other post:
It appears that Uniden (non-US) is treating dPMR as an another specific system type, not a variation of DMR, so it is an additional charge upgrade. If that feature was enabled for US models, then a charge is likely to be assessed.
 

RaleighGuy

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In my opinion, for whatever it's worth, is that a firmware tweak to handle the TDMA control channels would fall under the 'refining current features', and should not be a paid upgrade. The SDS series scanners are promoted as handling simulcast and P25 Phase II systems. The TDMA control channel is simply a variation of the more prevalent, non-TDMA control channel, P25 systems. So, if it enables reception of a variation of a system type already supported, it should not be a pay-to-play upgrade.

I understand what you are saying, and again I am not disagreeing just throwing out something for discussion, since that wasn't something in use when the scanner was designed and released, but a mode of TDMA that came later couldn't it be something new almost like a Phase 3?

That said, I'll admit I think it should be included as a free FW upgrade. If the DSD-FME and DSD+ FL authors can modify their programs to decode it, and decode the OTA aliases, surely it can't be that complicated for the team doing SDS FW upgrades.
 

hiegtx

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I understand what you are saying, and again I am not disagreeing just throwing out something for discussion, since that wasn't something in use when the scanner was designed and released, but a mode of TDMA that came later couldn't it be something new almost like a Phase 3?
Even though some of the systems, such as this one, are using TDMA control channels, the basic system type is still described as P25 Phase II, because that is the format of the voice (and data) transmissions received by units in the field. If the voice transmissions went to an entirely different format, then, and only then (at least by my opinion) would the system type morph into "P25 Phase III (or whatever spiffy marketing name Motorola or Harris conjured up).

That's somewhat similar to the older EDACS systems, some of which were ProVoice. It was still an EDACS system at heart, though the transmissions were of a digital type that, for quite some time, were not monitorable by scanners then available. Later model Uniden digital scanners were refined to allow decoding of the ProVoice transmissions as a paid upgrade. But that was the voice transmission format which required the upgrade. The control channel was still EDACS.
 

gary123

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View attachment 154032

I accept full responsibility for the poor research before posting. I should have checked the EU pricing before suggesting a price. I had completely forgotten that it was an available option in another market. Special Thanks to RaleighGuy for providing the correct and accurate information.

To be 100% clear I am still fine with paying the same equivalent price for the feature here in NA.

On the TDMA control channels This is an excellent discussion and what I was hoping for in this thread. I am currently researching the TDMA CC format and other technical parameters. Initially it does look like the packets in use are 'identical' but formatted for the TDMA frame size and other parameters. I still feel that this is a 'new mode' although it is a variation on an existing mode.

As a thought there is nothing stopping Uniden from bundling this mode with a few other options/mode/enhanced display of CC data to make it more attractive to prospective purchasers.
 

GlobalNorth

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These optional formats are not free. Uniden has to license and pay a royalty to use NXDN and other proprietary formats. I'd rather pay for them after the fact than Uniden raising the price of each receiver $100 to $200 USD.

If all one wants to listen to is aviation, NWS, etc. they aren't penalized for things they don't want or need.
 
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