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Rebanding has begun on Motorola trunked systems

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DonS

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AlanTilles said:
There is on typo on what you wrote. 862.0125 does not move down to 851.0250. First, the 862 MHz band is the ESMR band, and does not move. I believe that you were referring to 866.0125, the first NPSPAC channel, which would indeed move down to the 851 MHz band. Second, the move down is 15 MHz directly, thus 866.0125 MHz would move down to 851.0125, not 0250. As I said, I assume that it was just a typo.

Alan
Not according to actual implementations in the real world.

The Rx frequency for channel 440 (again, Motorola's channel numbers as received on the CC) was 862.012500 MHz. It's now 851.025000 MHz. The same "drop by 10.987500 MHz" rule applies to all channel numbers between 440 and 559.

Free hint: Motorola explicitly describes this, and even lists the channel number -> frequency algorithm, in publicly-available documents. It has also been empirically verified in the field.
 

AlanTilles

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DonS said:
Not according to actual implementations in the real world.

The Rx frequency for channel 440 (again, Motorola's channel numbers as received on the CC) was 862.012500 MHz. It's now 851.025000 MHz. The same "drop by 10.987500 MHz" rule applies to all channel numbers between 440 and 559.

Free hint: Motorola explicitly describes this, and even lists the channel number -> frequency algorithm, in publicly-available documents. It has also been empirically verified in the field.

You couldn't be more wrong. 862.0125 MHz is an SMR transmit frequency. And, every FCC rebanding Report & Order, every FCC license, every rebanding contract shows exactly what I said.

I'm now done, and you are free to think what you like. I'm not being paid to argue with you.

Alan Tilles
 

DonS

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AlanTilles said:
You couldn't be more wrong. 862.0125 MHz is an SMR transmit frequency.
And, prior to any rebanding, for good or ill, it corresponds to Motorola's "channel number 440". Post-rebanding, Motorola's "channel number 440" corresponds to frequency 851.025000 MHz.

This is likely why you've been "bashed" above. Your statements, while they may be correct in some contexts, really don't have anything to do with a scanner user's concerns. We don't care about any FCC rubbish. All we care about is mapping a channel number, as indicated on a Motorola 3600bps CC, to a receive frequency on our scanners.

Motorola's channel number 440 used to be 862.012500 MHz. Scanners use, for channels 0-719, the formula:
RxFreq = 851.012500 + (channel x .025000)
Since scanners work on non-rebanded systems, we must presume that this algorithm is correct. (Any Motorola documentation to the contrary is certainly welcome - FCC documentation is irrelevant in the current context).

With Motorola's rebanding implementation, Motorola's channel number 440 is now 851.025000 MHz. Per Motorola's own released info, the receive frequency for channels between 440 and 559 (inclusive) is now calculated by:
RxFreq = 851.025000 + ((channel - 440) x .025000)

Therefore, Motorola's channel number 440 "moved" from 862.012500 MHz (851.012500 + (440 x .025000) = 862.012500) to 851.025000 MHz (851.025000 + ((440-440) x .025000) = 851.025000).

There's really no debate. Scanners using the "old" algorithm on non-rebanded systems work fine. Motorola has released the above "new" algorithm to the public. A scanner configured to use that new algorithm "works" on a rebanded system.

At the risk of repeating myself again... whether a system's frequencies have moved down by 15 MHz, 10.9875 MHz, some other number, or not at all is irrelevant to the scanner user. All we care about is the fact that Motorola's channel number 440 has moved from 862.012500 MHz down to 851.025000 MHz. We don't care that 862.012500 may not have been used prior to rebanding. We don't care about FCC "rules" or "orders". We care about, and only about, how Motorola has actually implemented "rebanding" on their systems.

Of course, if you're willing and able to provide some implementation-specific documentation from Motorola that contradicts the above, such corrections would be more than welcome. We scanner users would certainly like to see more details. Until such information is provided, though, we must go with the information that has already been proven in the field.
 

loumaag

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Attn: AlanTilles

Alan,

Please stop for a minute. Earlier in this thread I alluded to the fact that you were not seeing the forest for the trees, I feel now the problem is that you are only seeing the trees and not the forest.

As Don, Wayne, and I have tried to explain to you, the rebanding problem facing the the scanner world is only caused by the the FCC/Nextel agreement and realignment of the 800 MHz spectrum. The real problem for scanner folks was not the moving of PS down and SMR up the band; it was not even the changing of frequencies for EDACS, P25 or LTR systems and for quite a while Motorola systems that were not using the new (yes new) split frequencies starting at 851.02500. The problem was no one knew for sure how Motorola was going to assign LCN's to the new split frequencies on their Motorola proprietary systems.

We now know, both from Motorola documents and field tests on systems now using the new split frequencies, that Motorola has reassigned LCN 440 from 862.01250 to 851.02500. It doesn't matter if 862.01250 was a valid frequency or how little it was used if it were (only twice according to our DB in the US and both are SMR), the point is that post rebanding software loads on the radios now point Motorola proprietary systems' LCN 440 to 851.02500 whereas before they pointed them to 862.01250.

Whereas I am sure you are an informed person (in your field), it is apparent from your posts, that the specific problem being addressed in this thread is not your field.
 

WayneH

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Ok, I'm stepping in here and requesting that any further replies be on-topic. Please only post to let people know that your system has switched over to the new rebanding plan. And to clarify, this is only for 3600 Motorola systems. The two systems in the OP's post are examples.
 

KB9LIQ

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Why was my psot off topic? It talks about rebanding and that is why our radios need to be reprogrammed. Just asken
 

WayneH

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KB9LIQ said:
Why was my psot off topic? It talks about rebanding and that is why our radios need to be reprogrammed. Just asken
Yes, reprogramming doesn't necessarily mean your system will use the updated rebanding bandplan assignments like the two example systems.
 

sacscan

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Elk Grove Unified School District's system online

EGUSD's newly rebanded system went online today. Early in this thread UPMan requested that anyone affected by a rebanded system send him an email. Here's a copy of the one I sent him:

Elk Grove Unified School District's system has just gone online. I am monitoring it in conventional mode on a Radio Shack Pro-2052, and attempting to monitor it in trunked mode on a Uniden-made Radio Shack Pro-433. There is normal radio traffic heard in conventional mode, and NO radio traffic at all in trunked mode. The system's RR database entry is here: http://www.radioreference.com/apps/db/?sid=1875 . Notice that every frequency has less than 4 digits to the right of the decimal point. That probably explains why it cannot be monitored at all in trunked mode.
 

gcr33

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What you are hearing is wrong. Rebanding of a system using 866-868 freqs. will move down exactly 15 mhz. Some garbage truck foreman said the same thing in Bay Co. Florida.
 

WayneH

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gcr33 said:
What you are hearing is wrong. Rebanding of a system using 866-868 freqs. will move down exactly 15 mhz. Some garbage truck foreman said the same thing in Bay Co. Florida.
Please use
quote.gif
next time as we have no idea who you're referring to.
 

Julian1

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Albertville, AL Rebanded

I was passing through Albertville last week and was listening to traffic.

Heard one transmission w/ the frequency displayed...then no response as the frequency used was one of the "new" frequencies "born of rebanding".

When I am there next time..is there anything I can do or listen for that I can pass along that would be of any help?

Thanks to those knowledgeable in this field for your information.
 

loumaag

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Julian1 said:
I was passing through Albertville last week and was listening to traffic.

Heard one transmission w/ the frequency displayed...then no response as the frequency used was one of the "new" frequencies "born of rebanding".

When I am there next time..is there anything I can do or listen for that I can pass along that would be of any help?

Thanks to those knowledgeable in this field for your information.
If you are using a Pro-96/2096 or most of the newer GRE models then see this thread for the fix. If you are using a Uniden, a firmware update has not yet been released in regard to this.
 

FF86

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I'm still a bit confused after reading this post. Will my BC-780XLT be able to follow rebanded 3600cc systems?

I live in NJ and there are several 800 MHz Moto systems.

Thanks
 

HenryDavid

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Rebanding in Saint Lucie County

About 2 weeks ago the Motorola II system in Saint Lucie County Florida was rebanded. Though 2 frequencies are still operative, the trunking system has been changed and my BC996 can't follow the trunking anymore. I guess sooner or later the database will reflect the changes.
 

UPMan

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For St. Lucie Site 1, use frequencies 15 MHz below those listed in the database for the rebanded frequencies. You'll also need to apply the latest update (BCD996TFirmwareUpdate < UnidenMan4 < TWiki) and enter the system as 800 Custom with the rebanding table indicated in the firmware update notes.
 
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