Delta33
Member
The TK805 is Part 90 accepted and FPP if the jumper is set to dealer instead of User.
Recommend a dual/band with easy extended transmit mod
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Yes, I started to think buying a mono-band and keeping the Kenwood V71A might be a better alternative considering the availability of inexpensive Part 90 radios. It's nice to have one radio for all uses, and I really like my V71, but two radios could be a better solution. The DR-638 is still on the short list if I decode to go back to the single radio solution.
Project25_MASTR
Millennial Graying OBT Guy
Motorola XTS5000, Icom F3021/F4021, Icom F5021/6021, Icom F121/F221, Icom F320/F420, Motorola XPR6550, Motorola XPR7550(e), Motorola XPR4550, Motorola XPR5550(e), Motorola JT1000, Kenwood TK-780/880, Kenwood TK-760/860.
As I read all of the posts, looks like I'm one of the few with the program two identical zones with one having transmit enabled and the other disabled for the channels in question.
D
DaveNF2G
Guest
People keep saying this, and in the USA at least, it is still wrong.
Part 90 prohibits "any person" from possessing a transmitter than is able to transmit on frequencies for which they are not licensed or authorized to transmit by a licensee.
D
DaveNF2G
Guest
I don't think you can add or subtract frequencies in memory from the front panel of any of those radios, which is what "programmable" means in this context.
I own three out of that list, not a single one of them is front panel programmable...
...XPR7550(e), XPR4550, and TK-880-1
Now I can program what the auxiliary keys on the radios do, but I cannot program any frequency, tone, CC, TG#, et cetera from the front panel.
Dave is dead on again.
Part 90 also states no person shall program or cause to be programed, any transmit frequency without a valid license.
Project25_MASTR
Millennial Graying OBT Guy
The 7550 has the option to enable in the CPS (allows you to edit in the field but not create, reverts after a power cycle), the 4550 is the same way but has to be enabled via a third party GOP. The 880 requires a resistor to be removed from the control head logic board and the feature to be enabled in the software; details in service manual.
All of them will allow you to edit existing frequencies and tones, never played with trunked. I believe only the Icom's will allow you to add remove channels (my 4021T defaults to 2.5 kHz dev when that is done).
Token
Member
That is interesting, what specific section of Part 90 says this?
I am aware of 90.427(b) that says a person cannot program a transmit frequency; “no person shall program into a transmitter frequencies for which the licensee using the transmitter is not authorized”. I am also aware that many people in these kinds of discussions have applied this to non-Part 90 use, because it contains no wording specific to Part 90 application or allocation.
If Part 90 contains a section stating what you said above, it prohibits “any person” from possessing a transmitter that is able to transmit on frequencies for which they are not licensed or authorized to transmit by a license, and if Part 90 applies to all operations even including other services, then it seems we are almost all in violation.
A General class ham licensee would probably own HF equipment that is able to transmit on frequencies for which he is not licensed, i.e. the Extra / Advanced portions of bands. A Tech using any modern HF radio to access the Novice segments of HF bands would have the same problems. An unlicensed person who purchases a ham radio to strictly monitor, with no intent to transmit, would be in violation. Anyone operating former military, aviation, or maritime equipment would be in violation. Owning part 90 (or any other service) equipment and ONLY programming Part 97 service frequencies would be a violation, as the transmitter would be capable of other frequencies.
This implies that no one may buy or own a transmitter for which they are not licensed, regardless of service. As I said in my first sentence, that is interesting, and I am very interested in hearing more details on why you said that.
T!
mmckenna
I ♥ Ø
It's important to remember that the rules are specific to the part they are in.
Part 90 applies to use on Part 90 frequencies
Part 97 applies to use on Part 97 frequencies
Part 90 does not apply to part 97
Part 97 does not apply to part 90
You cannot combine the two rule parts. It's one or the other.
If someone takes a Part 90, 95 etc. radio and start using it on Part 97 frequencies, they are then bound under the rules of the frequencies they are using. When I use my Motorola or Kenwood commercial radios on amateur radio frequencies, I'm required to operate under the amateur radio rules.
Using an amateur radio on Part 90, 95 etc. frequency doesn't fall under the amateur radio rules, it falls under the rules for the frequency they are operating on. Often this results in someone using a non-type certified radio, operation without a license, etc.
Some rules in Part 90 you probably should read:
§90.421 Operation of mobile station units not under the control of the licensee.
§90.427 Precautions against unauthorized operation.
§90.433 Operator requirements.
Part 90 applies to use on Part 90 frequencies
Part 97 applies to use on Part 97 frequencies
Part 90 does not apply to part 97
Part 97 does not apply to part 90
You cannot combine the two rule parts. It's one or the other.
If someone takes a Part 90, 95 etc. radio and start using it on Part 97 frequencies, they are then bound under the rules of the frequencies they are using. When I use my Motorola or Kenwood commercial radios on amateur radio frequencies, I'm required to operate under the amateur radio rules.
Using an amateur radio on Part 90, 95 etc. frequency doesn't fall under the amateur radio rules, it falls under the rules for the frequency they are operating on. Often this results in someone using a non-type certified radio, operation without a license, etc.
Some rules in Part 90 you probably should read:
§90.421 Operation of mobile station units not under the control of the licensee.
§90.427 Precautions against unauthorized operation.
§90.433 Operator requirements.
No, you appear to be reading things into it. No FCC Part applies to any other FCC Part. Part 90 only references/applies to Part 90 operations, including programming.
Ham is Part 97, and there is no such thing as Part 97 acceptance. That's why we can build our own stuff, and use commercial (Part 90), ex military , or what ever, as long as we adhere to Part 97 rules.
“no person shall program into a transmitter frequencies for which the licensee using the transmitter is not authorized”. ” ....it prohibits, "from possessing a transmitter that is able to transmit on frequencies for which they are not licensed or authorized to transmit by a license..."
The first stipulation addresses the second. Aquire the non-ham equipment, then properly program and use it per Part 97. No violation.
Where people get confused is trying to apply an FCC Part outside of their realm of operation. For hams, we use Part 97. As long as we operate under Part 97 rules (band, power, emissions standards, etc) the type and source of equipment doesn't matter.
As soon as you use ham equipment out of band, you have a violation. If you, as a ham, use Part 90 equipment outside of ham, it's a violation.
If you use Part 90 equipment as an VFD, LEO, or other sanctioned government communications party, you have to be authorized on those Part. 90 freqs. by the agency who's license you are operating under.
If you operate on their freqs. with an "opened up" ham radio, it's a violation of Part 90., specifically the Type Rating section.
People shouldn't cross reference the FCC Parts in operations. Operate under the Part that covers what you are doing. It's simple, and was designed that way.
Ham? Part 97, and nothing else.
Commercial/Fire/LEO/EMS, etc., Part 90, and nothing else. If another Part is applicable, the Part under which you are operating will SPECIFICALLY reference the other Part.
Token
Member
Great, but I see nothing there that answers my question of what part of Part 90 says you cannot own equipment able to transmit on frequencies for which you do not have a license. That was the statement I was questioning. And note that I quoted 90.427 in my post.
I make no claims either way, I simply have no reason to transmit on Part 90 frequencies. I may have "opened up" ham gear for various reasons, none of those reasons include use in services for which I am not licensed or to transmit in services for which the gear is not type certificated. And when such opened up gear is used to monitor Part 90 frequencies there is an illegal or innocuous transmitter frequency in memory, causing no transmission and an indication of "transmit error" on the display or transmission inside the ham bands if the PTT is activated.
T!
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Token
Member
I am not reading anything into it, I have not said that was how I thought, I said that was the way some people have taken things. I intentionally gave examples that might indicate that is not the only way to take the situation. I understand there is no Part 97 acceptance except in a few specific instances, such as an external amplifier capable of more than 0 dB gain in the 25 to 30 MHz area.
As for repurposing gear from other services to ham radio, that is something I do regularly myself, and my interpretation of the regulations. I asked a question in response to a specific statement.
If those statements are factual (and I know the first half is, 90.427(b)) and I own Part 90 equipment, and program it for Part 97 operation, then is it still capable of transmitting on Part 90 frequencies? Yes, it is. And I do not have a license for those Part 90 frequencies.
But, more importantly, in my post I asked for the specific Section that addresses this. I cannot locate a Part 90 section that says "from possessing a transmitter that is able to transmit on frequencies for which they are not licensed or authorized to transmit by a license..." I am not saying such a section does, or does not, exist, I am only asking where it is, so I can read it myself. I did find sections that indicate the licensee should control access to transmitters, but we are not talking about a licensee her and it probably does not apply as used.
If such a section (the second half) does not exist then the first half, 90.427(b) is clear and understandable. Don’t program Part 90 transmit frequencies for which you are not licensed…period…regardless of hardware.
Note that I have no dog in this fight, I asked a question, a specific question in response to a statement of fact. I intentionally gave examples that bring part of that into question.
However, in the past it has been stated loudly in threads like this that a ham cannot open his transmitter up and program in Part 90 frequencies. This is a violation of 90.427(b) even if he never transmits with the transmitter. Programming the frequencies does it all by itself as these are Part 90 frequencies and Part 90 is specific about this. Either that is a correct interpretation or it is not, I have never made a claim one way or the other.
If this is a correct interpretation then it means that Part 90 regulations can apply to other equipment even if the other equipment is not used to transmit on Part 90 frequencies. If that is correct, and if someplace in Part 90 it says you may not possess a transmitter able to transmit on frequencies for which you are not licensed, then possessing a Part 90 transceiver and using it on Part 97 frequencies could be in violation, as the transceiver is still “able” to transmit on Part 90 frequencies for which the user is not licensed.
The core of my question was, where in Part 90 does it say you cannot have in your possession a transmitter able to transmit on frequencies for which you are not licensed? The rest is pretty clear to understand.
T!
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KC4RAF
Member
As Token posted, I can not find the,
"Part 90 prohibits "any person" from possessing a transmitter than is able to transmit on frequencies for which they are not licensed or authorized to transmit by a licensee.", either.
I understood what Token was writing and tried to find in Part 90 the part referred to, but couldn't.
"Part 90 prohibits "any person" from possessing a transmitter than is able to transmit on frequencies for which they are not licensed or authorized to transmit by a licensee.", either.
I understood what Token was writing and tried to find in Part 90 the part referred to, but couldn't.
mmckenna
I ♥ Ø
§90.427 Precautions against unauthorized operation.
(a) Each transmitter shall be so installed and protected that it is not accessible to or capable of operation by persons other than those duly authorized by and under the control of the licensee. Provisions of this part authorizing certain unlicensed persons to operate stations, or authorizing unattended operation of stations in certain circumstances, shall not be construed to change or diminish in any respect the responsibility of station licensees to maintain control over the stations licensed to them (including all transmitter units thereof), or for the proper functioning and operation of those stations and transmitter units in accordance with the terms of the licenses of those stations.
(b) Except for frequencies used in accordance with §90.417, no person shall program into a transmitter frequencies for which the licensee using the transmitter is not authorized.
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I think the Part most people forgets is that even if they are a member of a Volunteer Fire Department etc. - the license for the fire department is - in my area of the country, only gives permission for the Fire Chief and Assistant Chief to operate while mobile.
Once on scene, the volunteer fire departments are in the process of trying to get enough handheld radios so that every member of the fire department that goes inside of a structure will have a radio.
At this point - those radios are too expensive for them to give one to everyone.
The El Cheapo Beofungs and Whoshuns are not durable enough to withstand the temperatures they would be exposed to. If you follow the radio journals, you would read that the temperatures measured on the outside of their turn out gear has been measured as high as 350*F
This melts the microphone cord of the cheap amateur radio gear, rendering it unusable.
The Motorola / Hytera / Icom stuff sold to these people are expensive for a reason!
These companies spends a portion of the profits on designing their equipment to withstand this environment and testing their equipment for durability.
Having known my local two way radio shop owner, I can attest that radios used by firemen are treated poorly. They ride around inside the fireman's vehicle. Rolling around on the floor, in the trunk etc.
They are dropped, forgotten at the scene, exposed to rain, sleet, snow, ice, water.
The amateur radio gear would never be able to survive for very long under those conditions.
And, fire departments receives grants to buy new radios on a regular basis.
Most times the life expectancy is 5 - 10 years, about as long as the battery is designed to function.
My friend would buy the cast off - high tech, 4 -5 yr old radios, refurbish them, sell them to the poor volunteer fire departments at a slight profit.
This is how volunteer fire departments keeps up with new technology without having to pay full retail.
Most dispatch is still done using pagers..
A couple of handhelds are kept in the chargers at the station, if someone needs one, they can grab one.
Those are the only people authorized to operate those radios.
The radios has a digital identifier that tells county control which radio is transmitting.
1 - Chief
2 - Assistant Chief
3- Engineer
4 - Fire Police
Once on scene, the volunteer fire departments are in the process of trying to get enough handheld radios so that every member of the fire department that goes inside of a structure will have a radio.
At this point - those radios are too expensive for them to give one to everyone.
The El Cheapo Beofungs and Whoshuns are not durable enough to withstand the temperatures they would be exposed to. If you follow the radio journals, you would read that the temperatures measured on the outside of their turn out gear has been measured as high as 350*F
This melts the microphone cord of the cheap amateur radio gear, rendering it unusable.
The Motorola / Hytera / Icom stuff sold to these people are expensive for a reason!
These companies spends a portion of the profits on designing their equipment to withstand this environment and testing their equipment for durability.
Having known my local two way radio shop owner, I can attest that radios used by firemen are treated poorly. They ride around inside the fireman's vehicle. Rolling around on the floor, in the trunk etc.
They are dropped, forgotten at the scene, exposed to rain, sleet, snow, ice, water.
The amateur radio gear would never be able to survive for very long under those conditions.
And, fire departments receives grants to buy new radios on a regular basis.
Most times the life expectancy is 5 - 10 years, about as long as the battery is designed to function.
My friend would buy the cast off - high tech, 4 -5 yr old radios, refurbish them, sell them to the poor volunteer fire departments at a slight profit.
This is how volunteer fire departments keeps up with new technology without having to pay full retail.
Most dispatch is still done using pagers..
A couple of handhelds are kept in the chargers at the station, if someone needs one, they can grab one.
Those are the only people authorized to operate those radios.
The radios has a digital identifier that tells county control which radio is transmitting.
1 - Chief
2 - Assistant Chief
3- Engineer
4 - Fire Police
D
DaveNF2G
Guest
When any law says "no person" or "any person" it applies to everybody. The relevant section of Part 90 (which I have cited elsewhere and I'm not inclined to look it up again as I am already familiar with the rules) specifies Part 90 related activity which is forbidden to everyone, whether licensed under Part 90 or not.
Also, the rules do not use the expression "capable of" like some state laws do. The rules specifically prohibit possession (and use) of a radio that has specific transmit channels programmed into it.
Token
Member
Sorry, but I don’t see either of those as prohibiting ownership of a radio capable of operating on Part 90 frequencies if you do not have a valid Part 90 license.
Lets requote the original line I am seeking clarification on “Part 90 prohibits "any person" from possessing a transmitter that is able to transmit on frequencies for which they are not licensed or authorized to transmit by a licensee”.
The (b) part is clear and easy to understand, but does not address the issue I am looking at. The (a) is addressing how a licensee should maintain control and access to the equipment under his license.
Nothing I see in (a) addresses the situation of an unlicensed person not associated with any licensee being in physical possession of equipment capable of operation on Part 90 frequencies. However, if that is true, then the passion of Part 90 capable equipment by a ham operator who has no Part 90 involvement would also be illegal.
Lets break it down like this, and answer these questions. Either: (1) it is illegal for a ham with no Part 90 involvement to operate repurposed Part 90 equipment on the ham bands, as it still has the ability to transmit on Part 90 frequencies, or (2) it is not illegal for a ham to operate repurposed Part 90 equipment on the ham bands.
In the event of (1) then yes, possession of modified radio gear, opened up, would be contrary to regulation. In the event of (2) simple possession of such gear would not be illegal, although for sure, and inarguably, operation of such gear would be illegal on Part 90 frequencies.
So what is the answer? 1, hams cannot use Part 90 gear on Part 97 frequencies, or 2, hams can use Part 90 gear on Part 97 frequencies?
T!
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Token
Member
And this I have no argument with. I see the regulation that says that. If you have the frequencies programmed you are in violation. 100% agreement.
But the original statement, paraphrasing here, was that it was not illegal to possess a radio that is “unlocked”.
Your response was “People keep saying this, and in the USA at least, it is still wrong. Part 90 prohibits "any person" from possessing a transmitter that is able to transmit on frequencies for which they are not licensed or authorized to transmit by a licensee.”
Am I misunderstanding what you mean in this statement?
T!
mmckenna
I ♥ Ø
Some good questions, let me see if I can answer them in a way that makes sense. No guarantee, I'm not a lawyer....
Possession of a radio -capable- of transmitting on part 90 frequencies isn't an issue. What the quoted rule part say is that "no person shall program into a transmitter frequencies for which the licensee using the transmitter is not authorized."
Remember, this is Part 90 rules and those rules ONLY apply on Part 90 frequencies. You cannot take a Part 90 radio and PROGRAM in Part 90 frequencies (for transmitting) that you are not licensed for.
OK, again, good questions.
(1) It is NOT illegal for a ham with no Part 90 involvement to operate repurposed Part 90 equipment on the ham bands. It's a fairly common thing. In fact, many repeaters are repurposed Part 90 repeaters.
(2) It is not illegal for a ham to operate repurposed Part 90 equipment on the ham band. I do it with my Part 90 radios. It's done with repurposed commercial repeaters. "Back in the day" it was difficult to find "amateur" VHF and UHF FM mobile radios. Many hams used retuned commercial equipment.
I'll go a step further. I worked with a guy for many years that was running an old AM broadcast transmitter on the 160 meter amateur radio band.
OK, I might be confused by what you are asking here. If the above didn't answer it, let me know. But here, let me see if I can answer it a bit better...
(1) Possession of "modified" radio gear, opened up is a complicated question depending on the radio (amateur or commercial) and where you are using it.
For a radio to be legal for use on a specific frequency, it must be type accepted by the FCC for the rule part(s) that applies to that frequency.
A modified amateur radio, which has NO type certification on the TRANSMITTER is legal for use on amateur radio bands. If it's been modified to operate outside the amateur radio bands, it's still legal. What's against the rules is to TRANSMIT with a modified amateur radio (with no type certification on the transmitter) on non-amateur radio frequencies. In other words, you cannot TRANSMIT an amateur radio that has no type certification on the transmitter on Part 90 frequencies. This would violate the Part 90 rule that requires transmitters used in Part 90 to be type certified for Part 90.
Since amateur radio transmitters do NOT require type certification, it's perfectly legal to use a transmitter that meets the requirements of amateur radio rules to transmit on the amateur radio frequencies. This includes Part 90 radios, old AM broadcast transmitters, etc.
Where things get confusing is when the Part 90 radio you want to use on amateur radio frequencies requires internal modifications to work properly on amateur frequencies. Once you modify the Part 90 radio to do what you want, it's Part 90 certification is now void. That's OK if all you do is use it on amateur radio frequencies. What you cannot do is use it on Part 90 frequencies since the type certification has been nullified by the modification.
Amateur radio licensees can use Part 90 radios on Part 97 frequencies.
Let me know if you need some clarification on this. I'm happy to oblige.
Possession of a radio -capable- of transmitting on part 90 frequencies isn't an issue. What the quoted rule part say is that "no person shall program into a transmitter frequencies for which the licensee using the transmitter is not authorized."
Remember, this is Part 90 rules and those rules ONLY apply on Part 90 frequencies. You cannot take a Part 90 radio and PROGRAM in Part 90 frequencies (for transmitting) that you are not licensed for.
OK, again, good questions.
(1) It is NOT illegal for a ham with no Part 90 involvement to operate repurposed Part 90 equipment on the ham bands. It's a fairly common thing. In fact, many repeaters are repurposed Part 90 repeaters.
(2) It is not illegal for a ham to operate repurposed Part 90 equipment on the ham band. I do it with my Part 90 radios. It's done with repurposed commercial repeaters. "Back in the day" it was difficult to find "amateur" VHF and UHF FM mobile radios. Many hams used retuned commercial equipment.
I'll go a step further. I worked with a guy for many years that was running an old AM broadcast transmitter on the 160 meter amateur radio band.
OK, I might be confused by what you are asking here. If the above didn't answer it, let me know. But here, let me see if I can answer it a bit better...
(1) Possession of "modified" radio gear, opened up is a complicated question depending on the radio (amateur or commercial) and where you are using it.
For a radio to be legal for use on a specific frequency, it must be type accepted by the FCC for the rule part(s) that applies to that frequency.
A modified amateur radio, which has NO type certification on the TRANSMITTER is legal for use on amateur radio bands. If it's been modified to operate outside the amateur radio bands, it's still legal. What's against the rules is to TRANSMIT with a modified amateur radio (with no type certification on the transmitter) on non-amateur radio frequencies. In other words, you cannot TRANSMIT an amateur radio that has no type certification on the transmitter on Part 90 frequencies. This would violate the Part 90 rule that requires transmitters used in Part 90 to be type certified for Part 90.
Since amateur radio transmitters do NOT require type certification, it's perfectly legal to use a transmitter that meets the requirements of amateur radio rules to transmit on the amateur radio frequencies. This includes Part 90 radios, old AM broadcast transmitters, etc.
Where things get confusing is when the Part 90 radio you want to use on amateur radio frequencies requires internal modifications to work properly on amateur frequencies. Once you modify the Part 90 radio to do what you want, it's Part 90 certification is now void. That's OK if all you do is use it on amateur radio frequencies. What you cannot do is use it on Part 90 frequencies since the type certification has been nullified by the modification.
Amateur radio licensees can use Part 90 radios on Part 97 frequencies.
Let me know if you need some clarification on this. I'm happy to oblige.
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