regulations in regards to crossband repeat vs repeater

[warweed]

Ok lets get some of the main info to explain my question I am a new ham with only about 10 weeks under my belt i hold here in Canada a basic with honors it is my understanding that i can not operate a repeater unless i hold a advanced class

with this being said lets presume a few things for instance if i have a ft-897d in my car setup for cross band repeat lets say im transmitting from my hand held in the field and hitting my mobile on 2m then from my mobile to the local repeater at 70cm from my understanding this is legal and deemed cross band repeat

how ever lets say i have now 3 baofeng UV5r's i have one in my hand and i have 2 at the top of a hill with some bigger whips on it on the one uv5r i have it on my receive frequency and a audio cable running from my speaker out to my other radio the tx radio to my mic in and i have the transmitting radio vox turned on is this my understanding that i have now created (assuming there all on the same frequency) a simplex repeater and this is not allowed ?

and how about if i where to have my receive uv-5r on 70cm and my tx on 2m or even both on 70cm with a offset is this considered a repeater ?


and last question lets say im using echo-station and i have a uv-5r in my hand in the field and i have one say hooked up to my computer for use as a autopatch say should i be with out cellular coverage ? have i created a repeater ??

i guess i am kind of confused at where the line is drawn from a "function of the radio" IE crossband repeat and specifically a repeater


thanks so much for your time guys and i appreciate your feedback

 

[mrweather]

You need the Advanced licence in order to own/operate an in-band repeater. Doesn't matter the band.

 

[DisasterGuy]

The example you describe of a "simplex repeater" isn't a simplex repeater and would not function the way you describe.


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[warweed]

Well that was really helpful ! Mrweather I'm glad you took the time to read and understand my question rather then give a generic text book answer I don't mean to be sinical or sarcastic but your reply really has no meaning or bearing on what it is I was asking

Lets try this one more time is cross band repeat as in a radio with cross band functionaility considered a *repeater* in the traditional sense of the meaning or is it considered a auxiliary station ?

And if it is the later do I have to identify both stations as I would operating a single station
?

 

[DisasterGuy]

While I can't speak to the regulation, the answer he provided was perfectly clear. He stated that in Canada the advanced license is Required for IN-BAND repeater operations. This would imply that it isn't for CROSS-BAND operation.


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[warweed]

The example you describe of a "simplex repeater" isn't a simplex repeater and would not function the way you describe.


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Sorry not simplex your right as it is not a single radio and there is no record

How ever you are incorrect if I put say a scanner or a uv-5r on say 143.250 (just a random number) and you put the transmitting uv-5r on 444.100 and on this radio you enabled vox and you ran a audio cable from your receiver speaker out to your transmitter mic in it will Infact receive on one frequency an transmit on another

 

[DisasterGuy]

Yes, that would be a simple vox operated cross band repeater.


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[warweed]

Please Forgive my ignorance then but does that mean I could legally run a repeater with a basic + liscense provided my receive is on one band and my transmit is on another ?

The reason I ask is I would love to have my own repeater with autopatch and some other functions for my own personal use that if all I need to does is run it cross band to make it legal then that would be great

 

[DisasterGuy]

I will let someone else speak to Canadian regulations but I will say that it sounds like you are a bit over your head from a technical perspective (no offense intended). There are MANY considerations that need to be taken into account that it sounds like you need to get a grasp of first. To mention a few: duty cycle, ID requirements, COR operation as opposed to VOX, frequency coordination, remote takedown requirement, etc. There is a reason that Canada requires an advanced license to operate a repeater and I honestly wish the FCC in the US required at least a general class license.


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[warweed]

Oh I fully agree there is a lot to be Learnt an take no offence to that aspect at all truthfully again being a amuture and a new one at that there is a fair learning curve from a technical aspect I can hack something together and Infact make it work probably pretty well I have a pretty steep background in programming and a fair amount in PBX design and such where I fall short is knowing the regulation and complying to them

However my thought was to use Echostation a software based repeater controller which has built in remote kill vox automated announce ect ect

 

[DisasterGuy]

From a technical perspective there is nothing wrong with echostation as long as the radios have a 100% duty cycle.


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[warweed]

Fair enough I was just hoping some one could speak to the regulation here in Canada based on a cross band echostation based repeater system and what the requirements are and if the repeater needs to announce or simply just acts as a auxiliary station or what have you

Thanks again for your input btw its worth saying I have no immediate intent to actually do this as was pointed out there is a lot of learning to do but first step of that learning for me is the rules and regulations in regards to this

 

[VE3JSO]

personally i am not sure but i looked it up from rac web site and this is what i found in faq

Q - I am the holder of a Basic Amateur Radio Certificate. I own two dual-band transceivers, one of which I use as a base station and one as a mobile station. Am I allowed to to use the mobile radio as a one way or two way cross-band repeater?

A - Yes. In accordance with the section 44 of the Radiocommunication Regulations, you are permitted to use your equipment as a cross band repeater; that is to say, that it has its input frequency on one band and output on another.
Section 44 states that the call sign holder of a voice repeater with input and output on the same band must be the holder of an Advanced qualification.

https://www.rac.ca/en/amateur-radio/regulatory/certification/

my best suggestion for you is go ahead and grab your advance ticket to be on a safe side that way you can own and maintain a repeater station with a auto patch irlp echolink and a remote station

 

[warweed]

Perfect that was exactly what I was looking for and yes I do intend to get my advanced in time but I lack severely in the actual electronics portion

I'm glad to hear cross band is good but still concerned about using a automated repeater controller however your post at least have me a starting point In the regulations thank you so much

 

[VE3JSO]

not a problem glad to help i believe the automated repeater controller will fall under the advance class but i could be mistaken since i only got my license july 2012 and upgraded in late nov

 

[warweed]

Ok perhaps some of the more senior hams could chime in to update I will be using 2 radios frequency to be determined one on 2 meters the other on 70cm as to fall under the "crossband repeat" using one scanner as the receiver as there cheap like borscht and one transceiver for the transmit and using the echostation software repeater controller in this instance and configuration as I would like to do the following just for testing and playing around I would like to play around and test different areas such as auto announce entry's via our existing RFID entry system at our local hacker space, have ability to check your email via text to speech and also work in asterisk phone based PBX

The goal in the future is to design and create a working in band repeater system that's highly flexible and versatile with a multitude of feature however I can build design and test these things now with crossband it will give me a leg up when I get to my advance qualification

The nice thing with asterisk integration is I can also setup a irlp *like* system that is also tied with say a local pots or a ham coud have his own voicemail boxes in the instance you are trying to reach a specific ham each ham on this system could easily register for a voicemail

Just ideas I have been tossing about

 

[warweed]

So what it comes down to is with a basic + qualification can I operate a cross band repeater and if so what are its limitations can I use repeater software ? Do I have to auto announce every 30 min ? And when keying up I presume I would just call my call sign followed by testing cross band repeater system my call sign or ?

 

[VE3JSO]

If I have an Amateur Radio Operator’s Certificate with Basic Qualification, can I have a repeater?

No, the privilege of operating your own repeater, within the same band, is given only to operators with Advanced Qualifications. to my understanding that does include software

Are cross-band repeaters (VHF-UHF) allowed in Amateur Radio if my equipment is capable of doing it?

Cross-band repeaters are allowed, but again you must have the Advanced Qualification in order to operate a repeater and you may only transmit in the designated amateur bands
Frequently Asked Questions - Amateur Radio Operator Certificates from industry canada web site

 

[warweed]

If I have an Amateur Radio Operator’s Certificate with Basic Qualification, can I have a repeater?

No, the privilege of operating your own repeater, within the same band, is given only to operators with Advanced Qualifications. to my understanding that does include software

Are cross-band repeaters (VHF-UHF) allowed in Amateur Radio if my equipment is capable of doing it?

Cross-band repeaters are allowed, but again you must have the Advanced Qualification in order to operate a repeater and you may only transmit in the designated amateur bands
Frequently Asked Questions - Amateur Radio Operator Certificates from industry canada web site

see this is where is confusing at least to myself and here is why


as per your quote from the RAC website

Q - I am the holder of a Basic Amateur Radio Certificate. I own two dual-band transceivers, one of which I use as a base station and one as a mobile station. Am I allowed to to use the mobile radio as a one way or two way cross-band repeater?

A - Yes. In accordance with the section 44 of the Radiocommunication Regulations, you are permitted to use your equipment as a cross band repeater; that is to say, that it has its input frequency on one band and output on another.
Section 44 states that the call sign holder of a voice repeater with input and output on the same band must be the holder of an Advanced qualification.

also a quote from the rac website

If I have an Amateur Radio Operator’s Certificate with Basic Qualification, can I have a repeater?

No, the privilege of operating your own repeater, within the same band, is given only to operators with Advanced Qualifications. to my understanding that does include software

Are cross-band repeaters (VHF-UHF) allowed in Amateur Radio if my equipment is capable of doing it?

Cross-band repeaters are allowed, but again you must have the Advanced Qualification in order to operate a repeater and you may only transmit in the designated amateur bands
Frequently Asked Questions - Amateur Radio Operator Certificates from industry canada web site

the 2 statements contradict itself


after reviewing section 44 of ric-3

44. A person who operates radio apparatus in the amateur radio service must hold an Amateur Radio Operator Certificate with Advanced Qualification in order to SOR/2000-78

(a) install or operate a transmitter or a radio frequency amplifier that is not commercially manufactured, for use in the amateur radio service; or

(b) install any radio apparatus to be used specifically

(i) for receiving and automatically retransmitting radiotelephone communications within the same frequency band, or
(ii) for an amateur radio club station.



Also take into account this

Q - I hold an amateur radio certificate with only a Basic qualification. Can I set up and operate a radiotelephone repeater with 70 cm input and 2m output?

A - Yes. Section 44 of the Radiocommunication Regulations stipulates that an Advanced qualification must be held by the licensee of a voice repeater repeating in the same band. Note however that to control the repeater remotely (as opposed to simply using it), an Advanced certification is required.


My interpretation of the above information is as follows and please tell me if you happen to read this differently i may setup a repeater on 2m receive and 70cm transmit is a licensee is only required to hold a advanced qualification to operate a radiotelephone repeater operating in the same band ie 2m to 2m i would also say that ric-3 section 44 this would also confirm the "control person" as it seem the above regulation only applys to same band repeaters and not cross band

in respect to this excerpt from the IC website

"Are cross-band repeaters (VHF-UHF) allowed in Amateur Radio if my equipment is capable of doing it?

Cross-band repeaters are allowed, but again you must have the Advanced Qualification in order to operate a repeater and you may only transmit in the designated amateur bands." I have found nothing that currently supports this and wonder if this has been ammended as i have reviewed the radio communication regulations from section 42-48 in fact they are very clear about in band repeaters but nothing about cross band


am i missing something ??

 

[warweed]

i wonder if there is some one at industry canada some one could point me to that could tell me for certain if this is possible or not