Repeater capable GMRS with FRS channels?

[Rred]

Jim-
"That being said, is there indeed a mandate that states specifically what radio service or frequencies a CERT team MUST use? "
AFAIK, DHS and FEMA simply followed the leadoff the LAFD, which originated the concept for the whole program. No one in the programs "must" use any radio at all. Remember that one of the major issues brought up in the WTC attacks was that fire, police, and ems radio systems were, at that point, pretty much totally unco-ordinated. Most people are unaware the NYC EMS lost all radio communication for 48 hours (?) after the attack as well, as they had shifted to new equipment based on the WTC and the city had dismantled the old system as being too expensive and not necessary to keep as a backup. Ooops.
Now in theory, there's a national plan to co-ordinate all the players' radios. In theory.

But DHS and FEMA and Citizen Corps cannot mandate any use of radios, that's the FCC's sole prerogative. If the FCC says "Thou shalt use...Thou shalt not use...Thou shalt find thine one way..." whatever it is, is. And the FCC really doesn't want to be bothered by or for small players.

"It's sounding to me then, that you are saying CERT would be closer to RACES for comparative purposes. "
Exactly! No EMO, no sponsor? No RACES team. Except of course each RACES group is controlled solely by their sponsor, while DHS and FEMA can impose requirements and standards over CERT, beyond the local sponsor. (Like uniform training manuals.)

"I honestly don't know enough about CERT to know that. I've always thought of them as vollies not unlike ARES." Substitute "Uncle Sam" for "The ARRL" and they still are.(G) Different master, same basic concept.

 

[Rred]

mm-
"The FCC rules are very convoluted" One might call that an understatement.(G)

"None of that limits radios to only 2 watts, it only says that on those specific frequencies, 2 watts is the highest allowed ERP. " And my point remains "all catch mice". The rest doesn't matter much, if a group is using an agency's license, and that license restricts operations to 2 watts. That's still requiring that the RADIO itself somehow not be allowed to emit more than two watts, assuming that licensee is the sole user of the radio, right?
Somewhere in Part90 I saw a reference to power limits, and somewhere on a specific license I saw a similar reference allowing the use of ## portable units on specific frequencies, restricted to set power limits. Bottom line is that whoever operates the radios, needs to have them programmed and "locked" to meet the limits of their license, which is of course subject to the Part.

"It also doesn't single out specific frequencies for CERT use."
No, it does not. I never inferred that it did. Although anyone should be able to look at a national band plan and say "Let's see, this type of an organization....probably will be using this service, on these bands."

If your local FD or PD started using FRS or GMRS or MURS or CB on a regular basis, do you think that would be "proper" or "appropriate" ? How about if the local taxi company started using it, just for non-commercial use? What is "legal" isn't the same as what is proper, appropriate, best-suited, or intended for a job. I know that if I'm set up on a "public safety" service band, and I'm engaged in mutual operations, I'm singing with the choir and if they've set up a co-ordinated radio plan (as encouraged by the national shifts proposed after 9/11) I can probably still use that radio, even if it may require reprogramming.
FRS is just fine if I want to send someone over to the food court at the mall and bring back lunches. And if a group is broke, it is better than nothing, perhaps.
I know just how tight money is for most CERT groups. Most are unfunded and left on their own devices and can't afford radios of any kind. But this year? Apparently a lot of "departments" have finally upgraded to new (often digital) systems, and the old VHF and UHF commercial h/t's are going for a song. Often FREE to an appropriate home, or paid for by really small grants. Literally, it can cost more to have them programmed (by an independent for-profit radio business) than the radios will cost!

Use it, don't use it...volunteers and herding cats. But that's nothing new, Geo. Washington had the same complaint about the militia at Valley Forge. Great fighters, but they were also farmers, and when it was harvest time, they just up'd and went home for the harvest.

 

[mmckenna]

Be careful using the term "un-coordinated", that implies lack of frequency coordination done as part of initial licensing. I think what you are referring to is "interoperability".
Interoperability is a good idea on paper, but it's difficult to make work. Not necessarily because of technical issues, but more often because of "silos" in the agencies.
The issues of 9-11 had to do with agencies having their radios programmed in such a way that they were not able to talk to each other. Some of it was UHF vs VHF, and some of it was not having the correct frequencies programmed in. Even though steps have been taken to alleviate this, getting the actual radio user to turn the channel knob is still a major issue.

There is certainly a lot that could change to make things easier for CERT teams. Acquiring radios from agencies that have replaced their gear is a good idea, however a lot of the radios that have been retired in the last few years happened because of the narrow banding mandate. There are a -lot- of used radios out there that do not meet the narrow band requirements that exist on the Part 90 frequencies.

As I stated above, my dad is on a CERT team. Most of them have their amateur radio licenses, and that is what they use. They have agreements with other CERT teams and amateur clubs to use existing amateur radio repeaters, and pre-agreed upon simplex frequencies to use.
However, keep in mind that being on a CERT team doesn't come with the requirement that one hold an amateur license. The primary focus of CERT isn't to be radio operators. Many people don't understand radio, and don't want to fiddle with the gear. For instances like this, radio services like FRS, GMRS, MURS work well. A simple, easy to use radio that gets purchased by individuals, used for the necessary task, and then put away.

There is certainly a place in CERT for good, reliable communications, and that can include dedicated high quality commercial radios. It isn't a necessary or a requirement, and it isn't mandated. The primary focus of CERT isn't communications. For many situations, FRS would be suitable. Short range communications between team members is what is needed, not wide area command and control type systems. That would be handled at a different level.

As for the OP's question, he's asking about what might be suitable, not only for future CERT needs, but also for short range family style communications. The two do not necessarily need to be the same radio. The local CERT team might have a recommendation for radios, however they may not. Radios are not a requirement for CERT. For local, short range family communications, FRS/GMRS is certainly a viable solution, and would be the proper place to be.
If the two needs can be solved by one radio, then perfect, nothing else needs to be done.

 

[mmckenna]

Rred,

Let's take a look at the OP's opening post:
"I'm going to be applying for my GMRS license and am looking at the various FRS/GMRS radios."

Nothing wrong with that, and nothing to do with Part 90. He's looking for FRS/GMRS radios.


"In Spring 2015 I'm going to partake in CERT training (Citizens Emergency Response Team) and I know they make use of the FRS/GMRS radios."

He -knows- they use FRS/GMRS radios. Suitable choice and legal, doesn't matter if you agree or not.

"I have looked around and with so many radios, and so many of them NOT repeater capable, I was wondering if anyone has a current model list of those that are. So far I've only found the Motorola MS350R and it's camo sister, the MS355R."

Here is his question. Nothing said about needing Part 90 radios.

"Thanks in advance.
Scott
N6UUH"

And look! He holds an amateur radio license. Perfect resource.

Several suggestions were made above regarding suitable radios. This didn't need to deteriorate into a Part 90 argument. I'd suggest if you want to discuss the CERT/Part 90 connection that it be done in a new thread.

 

[rapidcharger]

If your local FD or PD started using FRS or GMRS or MURS or CB on a regular basis, do you think that would be "proper" or "appropriate" ? How about if the local taxi company started using it, just for non-commercial use? )))

Once again, you're inferring that CERT is akin to Fire fighters or police officers and with equivalent communications needs.
The two are incommensurable.

(((the old VHF and UHF commercial h/t's are going for a song.)))

Because they aren't narrowband compliant which they will need to be to use on part 90 frequencies.

(((Literally, it can cost more to have them programmed (by an independent for-profit radio business) than the radios will cost! )))

Yet another convincing reason to go with something that doesn't have to be programmed by a "for-profit radio business".

((( Geo. Washington had the same complaint about the militia at Valley Forge. Great fighters, but they were also farmers, and when it was harvest time, they just up'd and went home for the harvest.

Congratulations on such a beautiful red herring.

 

[rapidcharger]

Rred,

Let's take a look at the OP's opening post:
"I'm going to be applying for my GMRS license and am looking at the various FRS/GMRS radios."

Nothing wrong with that, and nothing to do with Part 90. He's looking for FRS/GMRS radios.


"In Spring 2015 I'm going to partake in CERT training (Citizens Emergency Response Team) and I know they make use of the FRS/GMRS radios."

He -knows- they use FRS/GMRS radios. Suitable choice and legal, doesn't matter if you agree or not.

"I have looked around and with so many radios, and so many of them NOT repeater capable, I was wondering if anyone has a current model list of those that are. So far I've only found the Motorola MS350R and it's camo sister, the MS355R."

Here is his question. Nothing said about needing Part 90 radios.

"Thanks in advance.
Scott
N6UUH"

And look! He holds an amateur radio license. Perfect resource.

Several suggestions were made above regarding suitable radios. This didn't need to deteriorate into a Part 90 argument. I'd suggest if you want to discuss the CERT/Part 90 connection that it be done in a new thread.

Poor Scott! But his first mistake was that he gave out too information.
Instead of saying all that, he should have cut out everything but the last sentence. :wink:

 

[mmckenna]

Poor Scott! But his first mistake was that he gave out too information.
Instead of saying all that, he should have cut out everything but the last sentence. :wink:

Poor Scott, indeed.

Scott, if you are still here (and I wouldn't blame you if you ran off screaming…) let us know.

Finding Part 95 accepted radios that are repeater capable can be difficult. I do know that the older Icom radios, both portable and mobile, had Part 95 in them, as well as Part 90. I used to use the Icom F-4 portables as well as several Icom mobiles, IC-F420, IC-F221, IC-F2020. I could put them on the 70CM band also. Nice radios, available cheap on the used market, and narrow band capable. Only thing to be aware of on the used market is that often the UHF radios listed on sites like e-Bay don't list what version they are. Icom made 2 versions, the 403 - 430 versions which would not cover the GMRS frequencies, and the higher split versions. They'd do 70cm and GMRS just fine. More than a few cases of people I knew trying to get into GMRS purchasing the wrong radio.

Several of the older Kenwood radios have Part 95 certification, also. TK-390 is a nice radio, and can be made front panel programmable pretty easily for use on 70cm. Still in use by many public safety agencies. Good solid radios.

As for the consumer grade GMRS/FRS radios, finding repeater capable units can be difficult.


Many years ago I had an Icom 420 in the house as a base. Each of our vehicles had an Icom UHF radio in them. I had access to one of the local GMRS repeaters and enjoyed some pretty wide area coverage. It was a great solution that covered us until my wife got her amateur license. While my GMRS license is still active, we pretty much use 2 meters for all our family related stuff now. Unlikely I'll renew my GMRS license when it comes up. I sold off all my UHF gear a few years ago.

 

[Project25_MASTR]

Assuming that all of the free or little to no cost surplus radios available are wideband only is a little far out there. The FCC set a date over 15 years ago stating that all manufacture after that date had to be able to run narrowband…many agencies simply keep radio equipment for 10-15 years before they "surplus" it so some of the surplus may be wide/narrow selectable.

Kenwood does have several current production 90/95A radios available in both mobile and handheld versions.

Not sure if Motorola does or not. The newest mobile I'm aware of from Moto is the M1225 and the newest handheld is the P1225.

Don't think Icom has any current 90/95A stuff…I do know they have a current FRS radio.

 

[mmckenna]

There are certainly a lot of good narrow band/splinter channel radios out there on the used market. A few unscrupulous radio dealers pulled the "narrow band must be digital" sales pitch on agencies and forced the dumping of a lot of good radios.
I've picked up a couple of Motorola CDM mobiles for $100

On the other hand, GMRS wasn't required to narrow band, so the older wide deviation radios are perfectly suitable.

 

[Project25_MASTR]

There are certainly a lot of good narrow band/splinter channel radios out there on the used market. A few unscrupulous radio dealers pulled the "narrow band must be digital" sales pitch on agencies and forced the dumping of a lot of good radios.
I've picked up a couple of Motorola CDM mobiles for $100

On the other hand, GMRS wasn't required to narrow band, so the older wide deviation radios are perfectly suitable.

Many agencies also hopped on the 700/800 band wagon.

 

[rapidcharger]

Assuming that all of the free or little to no cost surplus radios available are wideband only is a little far out there.

You have to master the art of "liberal interpretations!"

 

[Jimru]

Rred, you are the classic delusional whacker. Please seek help immediately.

Straight from:

https://www.fema.gov/community-emergency-response-teams

The Community Emergency Response Team (CERT) Program educates people about disaster preparedness for hazards that may impact their area and trains them in basic disaster response skills, such as fire safety, light search and rescue, team organization, and disaster medical operations. Using the training learned in the classroom and during exercises, CERT members can assist others in their neighborhood or workplace following an event when professional responders are not immediately available to help. CERT members also are encouraged to support emergency response agencies by taking a more active role in emergency preparedness projects in their community.

This right there spells out what the intent and purpose of FEMA's CERT program is: to give CITIZENS, aka CIVILIANS (read: NON GOVERNMENT) basic skills and training to take care of themselves and their immediate community until...wait for it...PROFESSIONAL RESPONDERS arrive.



Jim,

You are asking someone who has no understanding what CERT is to give you their warped, whacker infused interpretation. FEMA created CERT to give ordinary civilians basic skills to be better prepared for disasters.

Some local EMAs use their CERT teams for other purposes, the same way some EMAs use hams in other capacities than passing ham radio traffic yet still call it ARES.

Regardless at the end of the day, FEMA makes it clear exactly what it is.

For a complete description of what CERT is about, check out the FEMA CERT website:

https://www.fema.gov/community-emergency-response-teams/about-community-emergency-response-team

Thanks for the links & clarification!

 

[jbailey618]

GMRS is only an option if people buy their license, and all new licenses are forbidden from commercial use. I can't understand why some people are so anal retentive that they have a problem with CERT or neighborhood watch using FRS, or licensed GMRS for their comms. If it works for them then go for it. Would a professional LMR system work better with Quantars on mountain tops and APX7000's in their hands? Well duh... but let's be realistic here, just the coordination and licensing alone would be prohibitive. Some ideas that may be worth exploring are using itinerant business frequencies and inexpensive part 90 certified radios and even used LMR Motorola / Kenwood radios that are narrowband compliment. For example I run a Dual Band, Dual Head Kenwood TK-790 / TK-890 in my truck and a Motorola XTS 3000 handheld that's P25 capable. I'm into the Kenwood maybe $500.00 total, and the Motorola $300.00. This is still a ton more than a CERT group outfitting their volunteers with Baofeng or Wouxun radios though. as for part 95 certification for GMRS, I personally don't worry what people use as long as it's Part 90 certified since GMRS is right in the middle of the LMR spectrum, and Part 90 UHF radios easily surpass part 95 specs, but manufacturers may not have opted to apply for the 95 certs. This is true with the TK-890 side of my dual band Kenwood set up. The preceding TK-830 was both 90 and 95 certified, but with the lack of interest in GMRS Kenwood never tried to certify the 890 for Part 95 even though it's perfect for GMRS.

 

[nanZor]

As usual, the "FRS Police" are quick to jump in and blast anyone for wanting to use FRS for anything other than "kiddie talkies". FRS is perfectly appropriate for a NEIGHBORHOOD CERT, for example.

Agree completely! I guess what I'm saying for others is to get real. Leave the public safety stuff to public safety, but you CAN help yourself and neighbors until other forms of help arrive.

That's the crux of the matter. Having been through fire and earthquake, and mandatorily evacuated from both, these radios have come in handy when all else fails. In this situation, what were once considered toys are now quite valuable tools.

The last thing you'll encounter during Katrina-like devastation are kids with enough time on their hands to jam. Most folks have headed for the hills, and those who do stay are either glued to the TV, with copper landlines down, perhaps power out with a generator backup, and those wondering what to do now that their smartphone isn't getting any signal. And oh yeah, the GMRS repeaters are down too for one reason or another. Most aren't headed for the kids toybox to get a radio.

Then there are the guys who can't find AA packs to replace all their fancy lithium-powered APX7000's, or ancient HT1250's on toasted nicads when those batteries finally fail after a very short time. No power - or perhaps forced evacuation - where are you going to charge?

So what's left - commonly available bubblepacks run from a stash of AA's, or perhaps rechargeables. I personally have a modern Cobra stashed that allows for micro-usb charging of NON-PROPRIETARY rechargeables. Not the greatest radio, but the ONLY manufacturer that allows you to do this. I can throw that and my Anker 8w foldable solar panel and be on my way in an instant. Slow, but it is basically a self-sustaining system.

My idea of CERT training with bubblepacks would be to train those on how to actually use their radios - and how to use batteries properly as a first priority.

Most I know leave these things in chargers forever (despite the warnings about basically roasting them beyond 16 hours), barely know how to get away from the default of channel 1, and don't know how to change PL if available.

To me, anyone interested in a neighborhood CERT would have to know how to use the radio as the #1 priority for training.

Just think - right this VERY minute while reading this - are you prepared to evacuate and what will you take? Put half your shack in your back pocket? Not likely. FRS being the lowest common denominator can be useful in situations this dire until professional help arrives.

 

[willgrah]

Talkabout® MR355R

Here is a link to the Motorola MR355R, repeater capable and maintains FRS channels. It is common or CERT in this area to utilize FRS. Good Luck!

I will add that they are not the highest powered radios out there but they are decent radios, average audio but will get the job done. They have all the correct FCC Certifications.

 

[Project25_MASTR]

GMRS is only an option if people buy their license, and all new licenses are forbidden from commercial use.

Not entirely true. You can conduct business over GMRS. Every user has to be properly licensed however. Makes is very impractical for businesses to individually license every user (like you said, you haven't been able to obtain a group GMRS license since 1989) so they tend to stay on LMR services. Commercial use is okay on new licenses though…as long as everyone is licensed.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[rapidcharger]

GMRS is only an option if people buy their license, and all new licenses are forbidden from commercial use.

Forbidden from commercial use? What do you mean by that? The license does not authorize operation as a common carrier or communication of messages for pay. Is that what you meant?

 

[willgrah]

Although this is a good discussion it is very far away from the OP's question, a radio that will do FRS and GMRS Repeaters. I gave him one option. Once in a while the Radio Police need to take a step back and actually answer a radio question without making it a legal debate.