Repeater Upgrade

[flymv92]

We are currently in the process of working with a company to add a new repeater site and to only use our current site as a backup if the new site were to go down. We currently have a 40W Kenwood TKR-750 with an omni antenna mounted about 25ft up on the side of a building. We have been given the opportunity to put equipment on a tower with a mounting position 90FT AGL. Since this opportunity has presented itself we have decided to go with a totally new frequency for this repeater and a more powerful repeater. We are looking at the MTR-3000 with a 100w amplifier. I noticed that the MTR-3000 has some IP based features, we currently do not have an IP connection to the tower but we plan to run fiber to the tower in the coming year. We currently use the radios just as radios, no trunking or any of those other features but they could all be things we would like to look at in the future. Below is a screen snapshot of the quote I have been given, please ignore the battery line item as those are new batteries for our TK-2180's.

http://i.imgur.com/K7pVn2Q.jpg

 

[WA0CBW]

What is the question?

 

[flymv92]

What are your thoughts on the equipment we plan to invest in ?

 

[WA0CBW]

Looks to be an above average installation package for a repeater installation. It also includes grounding and lightning protection hardware. Can't think of anything else you would need or add. Are you switching to digital or staying analog? There are many features that come with digital (two time slots, text messaging, GPS, etc.).

 

[flymv92]

Right now we are going to stay with the TK-2180 so I would assume we won't be able to use all the available features. We don't really use any of the features that the TK-2180 offers right now but we have started to use FleetSync on a few radios. Next time we upgrade radios we will probably be looking to switch to the latest and greatest Motorola radios.


One question I have about FleetSync would be is there any way to send the ID List to all the radios or do you have to do that while you are programming them ?

 

[DisasterGuy]

It sounds like you may be getting a bit oversold. Does your current repeater meet your needs? If so than you are really going a bit deeper than you need to. You are being sold a 4-wire interface... Are you pulling a 4-wire E&M leased line from the telco to bring it back to your facility? If so have you already priced that out? Have you been quoted separately for the install labor and tower work? You are quite possibly looking at several thousand dollars for tower work and a few more thousand in non-tower installation labor.

Regarding the repeater itself, you are already going to be increasing your ERP with the new antenna and extending your coverage with additional HAAT. Do you really need to double your actual transmit power? You could likely save a good bit of money going with a 50W Hyterra, Midland or Kenwood repeater.

Is there an existing shelter you are going into? If so the tower grounding, bus bar, etc should already be in place and available

 

[hitechRadio]

Are you VHF or UHF? You had mentioned you portables are TK-2180's I am not a kenwood guy but I believe that is a VHF portable.

It appears it is a UHF MTR3000, but options listed are VHF.

The antenna listed is 10db gain omni, so I am assuming it is a UHF antenna? If it a VHF antenna that is one big antenna. Standard gain for VHF commercial Omni's for VHF are 6db.

Is the building at the new tower 100feet away? If you are, VHF 200feet of 1/2inch is exceptable. But if your UHF I would kick it up a notch and go with LDF5-50A. Let me put it this way, if your UHF you would be loosing almost half of your transmit power going to the antenna with the proposed line. Basically your getting a 100watt repeater but turning the power down to 50watts with that line if you UHF. It may be cheaper to buy a 50watt repeater and go to lower loss 7/8" LDF5-50A line, it would have the same results as was quoted.

Is this repeater for Public Saftey?

The IP port on the MTR would only be used if you went Digital.

It shows an option for 4-wire wireline. Will this repeater be remoted to a console/tone remote?


Instead of getting a new frequency pair you could use the same frequencies at both sites. Just have the backup repeater programmed with a different recieve PL, but both sites with same transmit PL. And program your radios with Backup and Main. Just an option.

I am also wondering if the TKR-750 may be actually programmed as a base only. Thus the reason for the new frequecy pair. Unless for other various FCC reasons.
Does the TKR-750 have duplexers hooked to it?



You had mentioned maybe upgrading to Motorola radio's, what kind or model were you thinking of?

Sorry, about all the questions, just trying to help. TTFN

 

[DisasterGuy]

He would have to pay for coordination and licensing services anyway since the site is moving and ERP as well as HAAT are changing. This would be considered a Major Modification to the existing license and in reality will not cost h any more or less.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[flymv92]

What DisasterGuy said is part of the reason to apply for a new license.

Our current repeater does not meet our needs, coverage is lacking for mobile and portable radios.

We are currently not planning to lease any lines nor do we have a dispatch console at this time. If we were going to do any dispatch console we would probably want to use a software based one, as we could easily connect to the tower via Wi-Fi assume interference from other equipment did not cause problems.

As for the enclosure we are purchasing a nema box to be install on the site, the tower has not yet been erected nor has the pad around the tower been poured. We will be buying a 50x25x25 nema cabinet with rack rails and a heating and cooling system.

Yes the tower and installation charges are on a separate quote. The area we are located in requires significant travel time so whenever we have technicians come do work it can be astronomically high compared to a normal job.



The TK-2180 is a VHF portable. I would think the antenna they quoted us is a VHF antenna as the repeater is a VHF repeater, I will check into that.

The new tower is 90ft AGL our antenna will be located 73ft AGL.

Yes, the repeater is public safety related.

Could the IP port be used for programming or a soft console ?

I am not sure what the 4-wire wireline option is for, we just use a handset connected to a mobile radio as our office radio.

As far as I know the TKR-750 is programmed as a repeater, we have a different RX and TX frequency right now and if the repeater is off the system does not work.

A duplexer is where you combine the TX and RX into one antenna if so yes, we only have one antenna for our current TKR-750.

I really have no clue what type of motorola radios we would be getting, I have heard that they offer more waterproof options then Kenwood does. We have had problems in the past with the Kenwoods getting water or snow in them.

 

[DisasterGuy]

So you are currently using VHF radio but you are being quoted a UHF repeater and duplexer? That shouldn't be the case.

The 4-wire option is to provide tone remote control to the repeater. You would use this to use a tone remote or analog console with the repeater. There are many reasons (particularly if public safety) that it is advisable to "dispatch" from 4-wire control rather than using a control station as you describe. There are ways to convert the analog 4-wire tone control to digital, send over a wireless link if within range / line of sight, and bring back out to an analog tone remote on the other end. You could expect to spend around $4,000 for this setup. You don't mention how far the tower is from your building but if within 1000' or so you could even using direct burial CAT5 for the link.

The bottom line is that it sounds like you are a bit short of the knowledge that would be ideal to project manage this and make sure you are getting what you actually need from the vendor. With that said, I would recommend consulting with at least one or two more shops for proposals.

Honestly with the little bit of information that you have provided here both about the actual use of the system, location/topography, service area, site, etc there is no way that anyone can give you very sound advice other than raising the questions that we have here. There certainly are parts of the quote that do not make sense, are things you don't need / understand / haven't asked for, etc. There is enough of a disconnect that all we can really do is recommend you obtain multiple proposals.