Ringwood Police (NXDN) Soon?

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K2YYN

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Ringwood Police (Passaic County) just updated their FCC license by adding a new emission 4K00F1E only to their VHF repeater pair assigned to Police Dispatch. 151.1675/158.8275 KNEK636. Keep an ear out i.e monitoring, they may be switching to NXDN soon:confused:.
 

K2AJB

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This is really weird. They updated their Police Dispatch frequency, but also updated all their other frequencies on that license. This means that they also updated their lowband frequency to NXDN!
 

mmckenna

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So what, for the cost of NXDN you would come out on top compared to a P-25 grant.
Exactly. Federal Grants don't necessarily cover 100% of the radio cost. For some departments it's still cheaper to go with something like NXDN or DMR.

Since this usually triggers the "interoperability" argument, all DMR and NXDN radios out there, along with all P25 radios, will do analog FM just fine.
 

N2ZGE

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I believe all DMR and NXDN radios have the option to encrypt, so I am sure they will go encrypted as soon as they make the switch, just like most PDs who switched to DMR in the past. So running out and buying one of those ultra expensive Whistlers that are NXDN and DMR capable still won't allow you to monitor them most likely.
 

Alarmguy

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I believe all DMR and NXDN radios have the option to encrypt, so I am sure they will go encrypted as soon as they make the switch, just like most PDs who switched to DMR in the past. So running out and buying one of those ultra expensive Whistlers that are NXDN and DMR capable still won't allow you to monitor them most likely.
And you would know this how? You mean like Pequannock and Kinnelon and Denville who all went DMR and are in the clear... I guess you don't know how RAS in DMR works either.
 

N2ZGE

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Do yourself a favor and look up DMR and NXDN radios online and you will see the majority of them advertise as encryption capable. There was also another thread on the general forum about this too.
 

mmckenna

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We don't know for sure they'll choose encryption, but on these radios it's as easy as checking a box and setting up a few parameters in the radio and you'll have some basic encryption.
The NXDN radios all come with a basic 15 bit encryption standard.
I haven't worked with MotoTrbo radios in a long time, so I don't know what they are doing now.

Still, it's a good idea to find out before you purchase a radio. If they do go encrypted, your radio will be pretty much useless on those channels.
 

Signal-Zero

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You are "sure" they will encrypt? What information do you have to back up this claim other than the radio has basic encryption capability. And what other PDs are you taking about...as Alarmguy posted, Denville, Kinnelon and Pequannock are all running in the clear. Enough with the speculation.


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mmckenna

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You are "sure" they will encrypt?
Of course not.

The police department that I work with doesn't want some of their traffic out in the clear. While it's legal, they were annoyed when someone locally was streaming their traffic. I got asked what I could do to stop it.
Short answer is encryption is free, easy and attractive. If the radio shop asks "do you want your traffic encrypted", likely the first answer will be "yes". Hopefully they'll think about it and the radio shop will explain the benefits and drawbacks of it and they'll make a more informed decision.

All we were trying to point out is that it would be wise to find out for sure that they are absolutely going to run in the clear before telling someone to go out and buy a new radio. It could be a costly mistake.
 

N2ZGE

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True McKenna. The obvious first answer from a police department when given the free option to encrypt would most likely be "yes". Perhaps Denville and Kinellon did not have that easy option when switching to DMR, however now the technologg is easily available in the new radios, I think it is MORE than just speculation when it comes to possible encryption.

Obviously as hobbyists, we are very upset about the growing trend of encryption (most recently Plainfield, several towns in Monmouth County, and Long Beach Twp. As it is likely that very few PDs will actually still be in the clear in 10 years from now. It is a sad reality that is definitely happening everywhere and beyond speculation.
 

Signal-Zero

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You do realize that pretty much all Motorola subscribers have ADP encryption capability? I can sit here and name hundreds of departments using XTS/XTL/APX radios that are encryption capable that are in the clear. My old Kenwood 3180/8180 had rolling code encryption capability. Did my department use it on analog ? Noooooo......

Old radios had the capability just like the new ones. So just because they are upgrading their system doesn't mean encryption. Everytime I read a post about how a department is switching to the NJICS system, certain forum members bring up the encryption topic without zero evidence of the department going in that direction.

Again, people are speculating with the "likely" they will encrypt just because the technology exists in the subscriber.

I laugh when I talk to higher ups about encrypting their main dispatch channels...my response is usually NYPD runs in the clear. Why does your one stoplight town think they need it.? Then they talk about officer safety. I explain what an encrypted tac channel is or an MDT.


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jaymatt1978

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That was a VERY RUDE reply
EVERY Digital radio on the market has the CAPABILITY to become encrypted, whether it be a hardware or software add-on, departments many not want to pay for it. Also from my own personal research the word encryption is being used WAY too liberally because I know people who say so and so is switching to DMR or NXDN and using their versions of privacy codes, doesn't mean encryption
To a lot of us the definition of ENCRYPTION is you need to have a radio AND A KEY in order to hear the traffic, like in World Disney World for instance.
ALSO N2ZGE you need to take what's said online with regards to encryption with a grain of salt. Some of these people are the same folks who say PRIVACY CODES ON FRS radios prevent others from listening to their conversations

Do yourself a favor and look up DMR and NXDN radios online and you will see the majority of them advertise as encryption capable. There was also another thread on the general forum about this too.
 

N2ZGE

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First off, my reply was not towards you Jaymatt. Second, it was not my intention to be rude. I agree with Signal Zero that many departments now have encryption-ready radios, but still remain in the clear as of now. However, given the growing trend of PD's going encrypted (meaning NO SCANNER can receive them), I predict most of these departments will be flipping the switch to encrypted within the next 10 years. Back on topic, I DO agree that it is merely speculation that Ringwood specifically will be NXDN encrypted, but there is a 50/50 chance at this point.

Therefore, if a NEW hobbyist were to ask me if they should spend the $500-$600 for the newest DMR and NXDN scanners, I would tell them they are better off just buying a solid $100 analog Uniden scanner, considering you will "probably" be only able to monitor FD and EMS anyway in 7-10 years from now. Of course, this is only my personal opinion based on everything we've been seeing in Camden, Monmouth, and Ocean Counties so far, and most recently, Plainfield.
 

902

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I just came upon the thread.

I used to work on Ringwood's low band system years ago. Back then, they were using Mitreks in consolettes in the basement of the police station (which was usually loaded with confiscated beer kegs). They aren't capable of NXDN, and I haven't seen any more recent equipment on the market that will do it on 37 MHz. Not that it's a bad idea, or that it couldn't be done, but it's just not out there. When you see something that's technically possible, but doesn't exist in real life, they went to a licensing service that has zero field experience in radio to prepare their application and just told them to "give me one of them" in terms of emissions. You'll see 11K2 emissions on low band like that, too. All wrong (and all that's wrong with the land mobile radio industry right now, too, as agencies are trusting secretaries, clerical employees, and marketing types to give them competent technical advice).

As for why would NXDN be an advantage on high band, it's all got to do with occupied bandwidth. A narrowband analog signal occupies 11.25 kHz in a 7.5 kHz channelspace. It spills over from each side, so the adjacent channel cannot be reused anywhere close by. It also means that a receiver system that's up high and pulls in a lot of signals will also pull in splatter from those adjacent channels as those users also spill over. Narrow NXDN is 4 kHz in a 7.5 kHz channelspace. It will reject those adjacent channels - and - in NJ, licensing the transmit frequency would be easier, because fewer adjacent channel systems would need to be considered. It makes sense that way.

As for P25 vs. other formats, looking at it protocol wise, P25 phase 2 would have been ideal as a narrow FDMA solution just like NXDN rather than a 2 slot TDMA (which "looks like DMR" but isn't, and for P25 phase 2 "has to be " implemented within a trunked environment instead of stand-alone conventional systems), as it could have been applied to VHF conventional systems and substantially improved interference.
 

Alarmguy

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They pretty much left lowband about 10 years ago and went to 3 VHF HI licenses with repeaters. They might still page on 45.4800 along with their VHF HI fire/ems channel, not sure. But my guess is they would be going to NXDN on VHF-HI, and just keep their lowband licenses for some reason.

I just came upon the thread.

I used to work on Ringwood's low band system years ago. Back then, they were using Mitreks in consolettes in the basement of the police station (which was usually loaded with confiscated beer kegs). They aren't capable of NXDN, and I haven't seen any more recent equipment on the market that will do it on 37 MHz. Not that it's a bad idea, or that it couldn't be done, but it's just not out there. When you see something that's technically possible, but doesn't exist in real life, they went to a licensing service that has zero field experience in radio to prepare their application and just told them to "give me one of them" in terms of emissions. You'll see 11K2 emissions on low band like that, too. All wrong (and all that's wrong with the land mobile radio industry right now, too, as agencies are trusting secretaries, clerical employees, and marketing types to give them competent technical advice).

As for why would NXDN be an advantage on high band, it's all got to do with occupied bandwidth. A narrowband analog signal occupies 11.25 kHz in a 7.5 kHz channelspace. It spills over from each side, so the adjacent channel cannot be reused anywhere close by. It also means that a receiver system that's up high and pulls in a lot of signals will also pull in splatter from those adjacent channels as those users also spill over. Narrow NXDN is 4 kHz in a 7.5 kHz channelspace. It will reject those adjacent channels - and - in NJ, licensing the transmit frequency would be easier, because fewer adjacent channel systems would need to be considered. It makes sense that way.

As for P25 vs. other formats, looking at it protocol wise, P25 phase 2 would have been ideal as a narrow FDMA solution just like NXDN rather than a 2 slot TDMA (which "looks like DMR" but isn't, and for P25 phase 2 "has to be " implemented within a trunked environment instead of stand-alone conventional systems), as it could have been applied to VHF conventional systems and substantially improved interference.
 

902

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They pretty much left lowband about 10 years ago and went to 3 VHF HI licenses with repeaters. They might still page on 45.4800 along with their VHF HI fire/ems channel, not sure. But my guess is they would be going to NXDN on VHF-HI, and just keep their lowband licenses for some reason.
There are quite a few phantom low band users in the Bergen/Passaic area. Personally, I'd have kept it. "Back in the day," their cars had Syntor-X radios (the pushbutton control heads) with DVP (encryption) so they could scramble up on low band. The fun part was that they had VRS mobile repeaters that had VHF high band portables. If you had that frequency, it would always be transmitted in the clear, even if they were using the DVP. All that stuff is long gone.
 

GTR8000

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Old frequencies that haven't been used in years or decades are perpetually renewed because it costs a grand total of $0 for renewal of public safety licenses, and the FCC has never shown any interest in enforcing whether or not licensed frequencies are actually in use.

We have old 37 MHz frequencies licensed that haven't been used in over 30 years, and never will be ever again. Those low band systems are twice removed at this point, having first gone to VHF, and now to 700. It's easier to just file an RO every 10 years and be done with it, vs caring what old frequencies hang around on the license forever.
 
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