SAME-type Radio Alerts for urgent Evacuation

[p1879]

Our country suffered a heart-breaking disaster in Lahaina. Wondering if homes could have something similar to a SAME-Alert Weather Radio that would be under control of local Safety personnel. This might work in some places, but the more astute-than-I here may have an alternative opinion.

This would be cheap tech, and already exists in one form. Many of those weather units have battery backup.

A big strength would be if Safety overhead could directly transmit on the frequency in a seconds-count scenario, like ordering a evacuation on foot to a safety zone. Lahaina at least had that big advantage of a solid safety zone, albeit hazardous in several respects.

Yes, hackers could do enormous damage and create their own disaster by accessing the system.

I realize this would be dependent on some type of repeater system, which itself would have to be exceptionally hardened.

I cast no blame on anyone . Knowing how fast things happened, we are fortunate to have survivors in any numbers.

Yes, those of us who listen to scanners in unencrypted areas do indeed have a huge advantage in situational awareness. But not all can handle that chatter all day, as our loved ones have repeatedly stated!

I did not see any similar threads on this, sorry if it is a re-hash.

 

[a417]

I will catagorically disagree with you on this topic. You want something similar to a radio that provides SAME-Alert type updates? Why not just get a SAME alert radio and lean on the actual local EMA people to you know...use the resources they have in front of them?



Read that second paragraph. It's already there. If the LOCAL EMERGENCY MANAGERS are inept or incapable, you need to think about that at voting time and/or raise the issue in your community. Raise hell, Praise Dale and enact change - don't go and insist on some new-hotness.

 

[RaleighGuy]

Our country suffered a heart-breaking disaster in Lahaina. Wondering if homes could have something similar to a SAME-Alert Weather Radio that would be under control of local Safety personnel. This might work in some places, but the more astute-than-I here may have an alternative opinion.

This would be cheap tech, and already exists in one form. Many of those weather units have battery backup.

It exists, in my area we get alerts by email, text, and phone calls, at all hours of the day and night, but only when the local emergency officials utilize it. As @a417 has said, why waste the time inventing something new when multiple avenues exist already, we need to get the emergency officials to use what they have, something they chose NOT to do (sirens that existed) in Hawaii.

 

[mmckenna]

Emergency officials have LOTS of tools at their disposal, almost too many.
The challenge is getting the general public to use them, pay attention to them, and follow the directions.

NOAA can already do this, as pointed out above.
IPAWS can do this via cellular.
Many communities have "reverse 911" systems that can directly call people and play a message.
Many communities have warning sirens.

The challenge is getting people to have a NOAA radio in their home and having it turned on. Usually "annoying alerts" results in people turning them off. Part of that is general public that assumes it "can't happen to me". The other part is emergency officials that overuse these systems.

The other issue is that it takes time for accurate information to make it to the people that can trigger these alerts. When a situation is moving as fast as this fire was, there's little that can be done, even though people will Monday Morning Quarterback it to death.

 

[p1879]

Great! I wanted some opinions. Yes, we have the SAME system already--what I was trying to communicate--poorly obviously-- was an idea for local officials to directly access that system or similiar in a scenario when every second is critical.

I remain ignorant of how long it takes for local officials to get it on the NWS system.

And of course, how many people have SAME radios in their homes, or listen to them? I bet the percentage is bigger in Southern California, though.

Even the "safety zone" of the ocean on the Maui tragedy had obstacles to beach access, people were pounded by surf into rocks, and you can bet some were blowtorched by hellish and deadly superheated gasses even in the water.

Was not critiquing anything about the communication situation or any handling of things on Maui. I was hoping to stimulate a discussion about a better way for notification.

You all made some very good points--I am in agreement that we have the methods for communication but there are weaknesses that may be improved.

 

[a417]

Great! I wanted some opinions. Yes, we have the SAME system already--what I was trying to communicate--poorly obviously-- was an idea for local officials to directly access that system or similiar in a scenario when every second is critical.

Pretty sure a well prepared EMA official can access that, reverse 911, etc..

If you don't have that, time to push back from the keyboard and make yourself heard at a town-hall meeting.

 

[RaleighGuy]

Great! I wanted some opinions. Yes, we have the SAME system already--what I was trying to communicate--poorly obviously-- was an idea for local officials to directly access that system or similiar in a scenario when every second is critical.

I remain ignorant of how long it takes for local officials to get it on the NWS system.

It takes minutes to issue a cellphone text, robo call, or other alert, more people have cellphones than weather radios (even those on assistance programs get free ones) and IF the local emergency officials choose to use them they are more effective.

 

[mmckenna]

Areas of the country will do things differently. Our PSAP dispatchers can generate messages into our "reverse 911" system (phone call/text/e-mail alerts), usually at the direction of the sergeant. So getting a message out can happen in a few minutes.

Other areas may require the local version of the office of emergency services to do it.

Not sure how fast SAME can be done, but its probably pretty quick.

I think you'd find that NOAA weather radio ownership may be high in some areas, but I'd question how many of them are actually plugged in, turned on and volume turned up. All it takes is one message that someone thinks is annoying, and the radio gets unplugged and forgotten about.

Having a system that will actually wake up someone when they are asleep would be difficult without relying on cellular service. Even then, some turn their phones off. Cell service can fail.

There isn't one solution that is going to be accepted by everyone and work 100% of the time. There needs to be multiple approaches and people need to learn to look out for themselves and their neighbors. Even with all that, $#!t is going to happen.

 

[wa8pyr]

Great! I wanted some opinions. Yes, we have the SAME system already--what I was trying to communicate--poorly obviously-- was an idea for local officials to directly access that system or similiar in a scenario when every second is critical.

I remain ignorant of how long it takes for local officials to get it on the NWS system.

NWS does put out fire warnings over all hazards radio (the new name for the tried and true "weather radio"), and as @mmckenna pointed out, many emergency officials have an almost embarrassing array of tools at their disposal for mass notification. In extreme situations, NWS will put out a special emergency warning over all hazards radio at the request of local officials.

But as he noted, the big problem is getting the public to play along; apathy is rampant. In my county, we use many different methods to get the word out for people to sign up, yet the opt-in level for the mass notification system hovers annoyingly around 20%. And how many people do you know who have an all-hazards radio in their house, even just one?

Another problem that can bite public officials is overuse. Some officials use their mass notification system to bombard their populace with too many notifications, paying no heed to the fact that these systems are intended for urgent or emergency notifications only. The end result of this kind of overuse is a populace that opts out after awhile, thus making the mass notification product useless.

I feel kind of sorry for the Maui emergency manager who took all the crap over his failure to activate the warning sirens. It's been stated many times by people who live there that the sirens are intended for tsunami warnings, alerting people to head for the hills; problem is, in this situation that would have caused them to run right toward the fire. A siren (or any warning system) is wonderful, as long as people understand what it means in a given situation.

 

[mmckenna]

Another problem that can bite public officials is overuse. Some officials use their mass notification system to bombard their populace with too many notifications, paying no heed to the fact that these systems are intended for urgent or emergency notifications only. The end result of this kind of overuse is a populace that opts out after awhile, thus making the mass notification product useless.

I've watched this happen a few times.
It's too easy for someone to think "Hey, if we warn them about everything, they'll be aware and won't blame us for not telling them". And then they annoy the crap out of everyone with constant alerts. For while, my phone was going off at least once a week with high heat alerts, amber alerts, high tides, just about anything you could imagine. I think enough people complained that they took it down a few notches. There's a very fine line that has to be walked with these systems between annoying the crap out of everyone, or not doing enough and getting their pants sued off them.

And the general public doesn't always help the issue. There's no shortage of people that get warned about fires or flooding, announce that "the gubbermint ain't gonna tells me what to do!", stay, and then suddenly want the nice folks from the government to come and rescue them.

In other words, if you build an idiot proof alert system, they'll just build better idiots.

 

[z96cobra]

They already have one of the most sophisticated alerting systems in the world. Take a look here...

All-Hazard Statewide Outdoor Warning Siren System

Watch these short videos to learn more about the All-hazard Statewide Outdoor Warning Siren System. Siren photos. Siren fast facts. Hawaiʻi has the largest single integrated Outdoor Siren Warning […]

dod.hawaii.gov

 

[z96cobra]

Here's more of their siren info from the page linked above.

Siren fast facts.

Hawaiʻi has the largest single integrated Outdoor Siren Warning System for Public Safety in the world.

The all-hazard siren system can be used for a variety of both natural and human-caused events; including tsunamis, hurricanes, dam breaches, flooding, wildfires, volcanic eruptions, terrorist threats, hazardous material incidents, and more.

The sirens output is 121 decibels and propagate with a manufacture radius of 3400ft. This range may vary due to environmental and surrounding physical conditions. The sirens are battery-powered and use a photovoltaic charging system.

The sirens are one part of the larger Hawaiʻi Statewide Alert and Warning System (SAWS) which includes FEMA’s Integrated Public Alert & Warning System (IPAWS) which used both the Emergency Alert System (EAS) and Wireless Emergency Alerts (WEA) to alert the public.

The sirens, along with the EAS, are tested on the first business day of each month in collaboration with County Emergency Management/Civil Defense Agencies and local Radio/TV/Cable broadcast partners.
When a siren tone is heard other than a scheduled test, tune into local Radio/TV/Cable stations for emergency information and instructions by official authorities. Alerts may also come in form of a Wireless Emergency Alert.

 

[mmckenna]

They already have one of the most sophisticated alerting systems in the world. Take a look here...

All-Hazard Statewide Outdoor Warning Siren System

Watch these short videos to learn more about the All-hazard Statewide Outdoor Warning Siren System. Siren photos. Siren fast facts. Hawaiʻi has the largest single integrated Outdoor Siren Warning […]

dod.hawaii.gov

Yup.

They have lots of tools. Like with any tool, it's useless on its own. It's up the craftsman that is using it to make it work correctly.

 

[MUTNAV]

Great! I wanted some opinions. Yes, we have the SAME system already--what I was trying to communicate--poorly obviously-- was an idea for local officials to directly access that system or similiar in a scenario when every second is critical.

I remain ignorant of how long it takes for local officials to get it on the NWS system.

And of course, how many people have SAME radios in their homes, or listen to them? I bet the percentage is bigger in Southern California, though.

Even the "safety zone" of the ocean on the Maui tragedy had obstacles to beach access, people were pounded by surf into rocks, and you can bet some were blowtorched by hellish and deadly superheated gasses even in the water.

Was not critiquing anything about the communication situation or any handling of things on Maui. I was hoping to stimulate a discussion about a better way for notification.

You all made some very good points--I am in agreement that we have the methods for communication but there are weaknesses that may be improved.

In this particular case in Hawaii though, I'm not sure communications was the problem as much as people (at all levels) not getting a clear picture of the fluid situation and responding appropriately.
OOOPS Sorry, I think I just repeated and rephrased the earlier post /\ /\

In the military it's called the 'fog of war', and those that make sense out of a fluid situation first tend to do better.

I have to wonder if the sirens were like the "giant voice" system on most Air bases, they can do sirens, but they can also pass voice messages... Such as "This is the command post, with a giant voice test of area 5", or "Evacuate area 3 to the North".

Although as I said, I wonder if anyone had a clear picture of the situation.

I also have to give credit to the guy that didn't want to sound sirens that could confuse people, he resigned fast enough that the people in charge can't expend a lot of energy attacking him, they now have to defend their own actions and provide info to the investigators.

Thanks
Joel

 

[n0xvz]

I have to wonder if the sirens were like the "giant voice" system on most Air bases, they can do sirens, but they can also pass voice messages... Such as "This is the command post, with a giant voice test of area 5", or "Evacuate area 3 to the North".

I'm familiar with Giant Voice. From what I remember of the sirens in Hawaii, they aren't the same kind. If I recall correctly, the sirens in Hawaii are only used for hurricanes. In fact, I know there are some aircraft (or at least were when I lived there) that are fitted with sirens too.

 

[RaleighGuy]

If I recall correctly, the sirens in Hawaii are only used for hurricanes. In fact, I know there are some aircraft (or at least were when I lived there) that are fitted with sirens too.

According to the Maui website for information to the community about the sirens, it states they maybe used for a variety of reasons as outlined below;

"The all-hazard siren system can be used for a variety of both natural and human-caused events; including tsunamis, hurricanes, dam breaches, flooding, wildfires, volcanic eruptions, terrorist threats, hazardous material incidents, and more." (emphasis added)

Outdoor Warning Siren Testing and Reporting

Public initiative to garner volunteers to assist with the monthly Outdoor Warning Siren Test

www.mauisirens.com

 

[kd7yvv]

When I lived in Grays Harbor County, they would test the sirens and there would be a voice announcement over the siren speakers. The only thing that I noticed was there was some echo and unless you were quite near the siren tower, you'd hear multiple sirens and messages overlapping each other making it hard to understand.

 

[MUTNAV]

According to the Maui website for information to the community about the sirens, it states they maybe used for a variety of reasons as outlined below;

"The all-hazard siren system can be used for a variety of both natural and human-caused events; including tsunamis, hurricanes, dam breaches, flooding, wildfires, volcanic eruptions, terrorist threats, hazardous material incidents, and more." (emphasis added)

Outdoor Warning Siren Testing and Reporting

Public initiative to garner volunteers to assist with the monthly Outdoor Warning Siren Test

www.mauisirens.com

I was thinking then that the idea must be to sound a siren and then get more information about what to do by tuning into the radio.... If nothing is going out on the radio, then to head to higher ground due to a Tsunami threat.

There is going to be a long and politics filled report about what happened.

Thanks
Joel

 

[MississippiPI]

There was a reason the dude quit in Hawaii

 

[CrabbyMilton]

The NOAA Weather Radio Network has proven it's weight in gold over the decades. The SAME technology is often temperamental so many just opt. for alerts on the phones given so many weather based apps. But then again, for people who refuse to join the 21st century and don't want to bother with anything even traditional TV and radio, that's their prerogative but they made the choice to be ignorant.