San Diego County encryption

d119

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Similarly, CVFD was set to get encryption keys for their fire units on CVPD channels, so they could be cleared in on the radio (like how you hear Vista FD on Sheriffs), but was told that not even FD would be allowed to monitor PII as they are not CLETS authorized.

Paul
HOO FREAKIN' RAY FOR INTEROPERABILITY! HOW FORWARD THINKING!

I think the only solution is a nationwide class action anti-trust lawsuit. LOL... I'm sure it's not anti-trust, but it sure sounds good!

Once again, the State of California manages to (insert four letter word) it's residents. Guess we're all not tired yet, we're still living here.

They are truly making it an "us vs. them" world.
 

Anderegg

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If I were to speculate, I would say that interoperability as it exists on the SD City and RCS systems doesn't mean what you think it means. With the new systems, things such as GPS tracking and the ability to easily keep zones "same system" personalities, factors in more heavily than agencies switching to each others talkgroups. We already see that save for ASTREA and ABLE, on the RCS Le South Command or Tac and Blue 1 are ALWAYS used, and the policy is written as such to preclude units fiddling with their radios to change zones to access other agency channels. As for system to system mutual aid, at most SD units for LE use patch or if not in-range of SD City 700 they switch to RCS M/A zone. For FD they directly access and use the RCS talkgroups. I have a friend that is with SDPD and he scrolled through his radios zones and he has access to all the SDFD channels (except 7B, it's not a scanner, concentrate on your job!) and all the RCS LE primaries, but they are not instructed to use them. Maybe they are there if an officer is in a life or death situation and needs to broadcast directly to nearby cops before being shot to death in 2 minutes time?

Paul
 

chrismol1

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Do you guys remember A Shot in the dark on Netflix with stringers? That show? How are those guys doing? Those guys driving crazy to get the best shot
 

Anderegg

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Scott left LA, and was recently seen buzzing around Texas. Zak was fired from On Scene (it's a complicated story) and started his own stringer company called Key News Network.

Paul
 

AM909

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Perhaps y'all could start it as a wiki article and work on it collaboratively, submitting it for sigs when ready for prime time.
 

Anderegg

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The argument against encryption because it means people cannot keep up to date on brush fires is a non-starter, as LE Command/Tac channels are always employed when the S hits the fan brush fire wise. As for active shooters and such, the agency would simply state that the safety of the officers responsible for stopping the threat by disallowing a suspect from receiving their comms supersedes any transparency to the citizens they believe would be less safe if the officers safety were not considered first. As long as such simply counter-points can be made, encryption will be the new norm. Don't forget we are really close (a decade or so?) to an OTA to RoIP or VoIP based public safety solution for communications. Good luck asking for access to law enforcement IP traffic, voice or otherwise.

Paul
 

tsalmrsystemtech

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I know the feeling of the initial shock of this announcement but was it really a "shock" Most likely everybody knew it was a matter of time. We have seen so much damage to the hobby in the past decade and when does the bleeding stop.

That's the biggest question is when we can put a tourniquet on the main artery. I am not trying to be a debbie downer but more will follow as the system evolves and is tweaked and fine tuned. I did look at the PO order for Oceanside and those APX radios are slated for MACE boards with AES-256. More cities within the RCS-Next Gen will follow. At least its a really big system with more talk-groups to listen too like FIRE. People will just need to adjust. Its a tough pill to swallow but I completely understand.

People get all twisted up about oh its heart-breaking when somebody comments on it and I get it. Some people just love this hobby so much and its a part of their lives. Nothing wrong with that. Some people have put a lot of money into their hardware and want to see the hobby move forward and succeed but its most likely not going to be the case. I have put some money into my radios and some of them have became paper-weights to a certain extent.
 

Anderegg

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It's more than a hobbyist concern. This affects people who don't even know what a scanner is or think that comms are like TV shows where a cop just talks and some magical in ear hidden VOX mic broadcasts to people standing in a. room looking at 20 monitors holding tablets. If you watch the news, or assume that if you got wind "something" was going down and assumed turning on the news or looking for media tweets or posts just works, then that process of how the public is informed about goings on becomes invalid. When you have "news" which can only be disseminated by law enforcement, then you have state run/controlled media, which is what they have in Russia and China. The only people in China who know about tank man are the people who happened to be there and saw it themselves, and similarly, the only people who know about that homicide last night in Chula Vista are the people who happened to be there and see it for themselves.

Paul
 

Anderegg

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Since the RCS has board meetings every few months and writes the policies that dictate how patches to the unencrypted mutual aid talk groups are governed, perhaps the best way to approach the encryption issue would be to call upon the board to reconsider how LE Command channels are allowed to be used. Maybe they could be persuaded by public or media pressure to patch active incidents more readily to these open channels as they occur, allowing the public to get its information fix and allowing the agencies to cut off the spigot as soon as the openness is no longer deemed appropriate by them. It would not be a perfect solution, but it would be better than what we are looking at now and modifying a policy that was written before mandated encryption became a thing would not in the least bit an unreasonable request. Since the public would not be transmitting on an open patched talk group, it would make even more sense for the RCS to add a new and unique "Clearcom" talk group to the Mutual Aid zone. The Mutual Aid zone is mandated by policy to remain unencrypted and Phase 1 only, and this solution would not only not tie up an LE Command talk group but being phase 1 would allow even more of the public the technical capability of monitoring an incident that an agency would be open to "share" comms with for the duration. The process of patching a talk group for a dispatcher is nothing more than moving their mouse to click on a checkbox, then unchecking that box when they want to end the patch. It would require only the addition of the new patch talk group on the system by the RCS, and the availability of the new patch talk group could then be added to each agencies dispatch radio consoles when the RCS does its regular routine system updates.

Paul
 

d119

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Don't forget we are really close (a decade or so?) to an OTA to RoIP or VoIP based public safety solution for communications. Good luck asking for access to law enforcement IP traffic, voice or otherwise.
That is the smartest and most accurate thing I've ever heard you say, Paul. The days of these large, expensive LMR systems are numbered. As everyone is aware, with few exceptions most agencies have moved their mobile data systems over to cellular-based technologies using the major carriers to provide VPN service over the air to CLETS, etc.

The DOJ hasn't cried about that. What it is unintentionally doing is causing the technology to prove itself to these agencies. Based on its reliability to provide mobile data, agencies can see the reliability levels for themselves. It's only a matter of time before some major technology is developed (we're already beginning to see the early stages of it with BeOn and whatever Motorola calls their "off-network" cellular interconnect) that provides "radio feel" dispatch consoles and subscriber units that these agencies are comfortable with.

Look at anyone who is making "Network Radios", like Link Communications, etc.

That's the way it's going, folks. The taxpayers aren't going to fund major LMR systems forever when the technology to provide basically the same thing is already there, and you and I use it every day.

Only a matter of time before a police car radio is a small box in the dash with a power cord and cell phone antenna port on the back. Give it an IP address, VPN it to the station "host" computer, and move on with life.

We on the same page there, Paul?

Oh, and you have to click "patch 1", then the resources you want to patch. No check boxes. Unless you're using Avtec, then it's Patch + resource 1 then Patch + resource 2, etc. etc. ;)

I seem to recall that there was an agency (Pasadena PD?) who had a talkgroup and the dispatchers would just put information out such as "Domestic Disturbance 1234 Main Street", "Vehicle accident, 5678 A Street", and that was the extent of it.
 

KC3ECJ

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That is the smartest and most accurate thing I've ever heard you say, Paul. The days of these large, expensive LMR systems are numbered. As everyone is aware, with few exceptions most agencies have moved their mobile data systems over to cellular-based technologies using the major carriers to provide VPN service over the air to CLETS, etc.

The DOJ hasn't cried about that. What it is unintentionally doing is causing the technology to prove itself to these agencies. Based on its reliability to provide mobile data, agencies can see the reliability levels for themselves. It's only a matter of time before some major technology is developed (we're already beginning to see the early stages of it with BeOn and whatever Motorola calls their "off-network" cellular interconnect) that provides "radio feel" dispatch consoles and subscriber units that these agencies are comfortable with.

Look at anyone who is making "Network Radios", like Link Communications, etc.

That's the way it's going, folks. The taxpayers aren't going to fund major LMR systems forever when the technology to provide basically the same thing is already there, and you and I use it every day.

Only a matter of time before a police car radio is a small box in the dash with a power cord and cell phone antenna port on the back. Give it an IP address, VPN it to the station "host" computer, and move on with life.

We on the same page there, Paul?

Oh, and you have to click "patch 1", then the resources you want to patch. No check boxes. Unless you're using Avtec, then it's Patch + resource 1 then Patch + resource 2, etc. etc. ;)

I seem to recall that there was an agency (Pasadena PD?) who had a talkgroup and the dispatchers would just put information out such as "Domestic Disturbance 1234 Main Street", "Vehicle accident, 5678 A Street", and that was the extent of it.
When are these cellular networks going to be reliable where we don't have a provider knocked out for 6 hours in half the country?
 

Anderegg

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That is the smartest and most accurate thing I've ever heard you say, Paul. The days of these large, expensive LMR systems are numbered. As everyone is aware, with few exceptions most agencies have moved their mobile data systems over to cellular-based technologies using the major carriers to provide VPN service over the air to CLETS, etc.

The DOJ hasn't cried about that. What it is unintentionally doing is causing the technology to prove itself to these agencies. Based on its reliability to provide mobile data, agencies can see the reliability levels for themselves. It's only a matter of time before some major technology is developed (we're already beginning to see the early stages of it with BeOn and whatever Motorola calls their "off-network" cellular interconnect) that provides "radio feel" dispatch consoles and subscriber units that these agencies are comfortable with.

Look at anyone who is making "Network Radios", like Link Communications, etc.

That's the way it's going, folks. The taxpayers aren't going to fund major LMR systems forever when the technology to provide basically the same thing is already there, and you and I use it every day.

Only a matter of time before a police car radio is a small box in the dash with a power cord and cell phone antenna port on the back. Give it an IP address, VPN it to the station "host" computer, and move on with life.

We on the same page there, Paul?

Oh, and you have to click "patch 1", then the resources you want to patch. No check boxes. Unless you're using Avtec, then it's Patch + resource 1 then Patch + resource 2, etc. etc. ;)

I seem to recall that there was an agency (Pasadena PD?) who had a talkgroup and the dispatchers would just put information out such as "Domestic Disturbance 1234 Main Street", "Vehicle accident, 5678 A Street", and that was the extent of it.
Stop making me agree with you, it feels weird! o_O

I can totally see LMR systems or Intellirepeaters being the fall-back to RoIP systems in the future, similar to how the current weird fall-back plan of the RCS today with CAFIRE1 and CALAW8 and other such fun alternates being the go-to when the trunking system explodes. I would speculate that AT&T probably has some ideas or plans regarding providing their own mountaintop fall-back LMR systems to integrate into their FirstNet master plan. With 5G being pushed for IoT and being used for so much more than texting and phone calls going forward, you can really imagine a more robust and reliable cellular network being something that can be trusted more than today's version.

Paul
 

K6CDO

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That is the smartest and most accurate thing I've ever heard you say, Paul. The days of these large, expensive LMR systems are numbered. As everyone is aware, with few exceptions most agencies have moved their mobile data systems over to cellular-based technologies using the major carriers to provide VPN service over the air to CLETS, etc.

The DOJ hasn't cried about that. What it is unintentionally doing is causing the technology to prove itself to these agencies. Based on its reliability to provide mobile data, agencies can see the reliability levels for themselves. It's only a matter of time before some major technology is developed (we're already beginning to see the early stages of it with BeOn and whatever Motorola calls their "off-network" cellular interconnect) that provides "radio feel" dispatch consoles and subscriber units that these agencies are comfortable with.

Look at anyone who is making "Network Radios", like Link Communications, etc.

That's the way it's going, folks. The taxpayers aren't going to fund major LMR systems forever when the technology to provide basically the same thing is already there, and you and I use it every day.

Only a matter of time before a police car radio is a small box in the dash with a power cord and cell phone antenna port on the back. Give it an IP address, VPN it to the station "host" computer, and move on with life.

We on the same page there, Paul?

Oh, and you have to click "patch 1", then the resources you want to patch. No check boxes. Unless you're using Avtec, then it's Patch + resource 1 then Patch + resource 2, etc. etc. ;)

I seem to recall that there was an agency (Pasadena PD?) who had a talkgroup and the dispatchers would just put information out such as "Domestic Disturbance 1234 Main Street", "Vehicle accident, 5678 A Street", and that was the extent of it.
Stop making me agree with you, it feels weird! o_O

I can totally see LMR systems or Intellirepeaters being the fall-back to RoIP systems in the future, similar to how the current weird fall-back plan of the RCS today with CAFIRE1 and CALAW8 and other such fun alternates being the go-to when the trunking system explodes. I would speculate that AT&T probably has some ideas or plans regarding providing their own mountaintop fall-back LMR systems to integrate into their FirstNet master plan. With 5G being pushed for IoT and being used for so much more than texting and phone calls going forward, you can really imagine a more robust and reliable cellular network being something that can be trusted more than today's version.

Paul
Wait. Cats and Dogs getting along? What next? ;)

In all seriousness, I'm sad to see it come to this.

Don
 

tsalmrsystemtech

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When are these cellular networks going to be reliable where we don't have a provider knocked out for 6 hours in half the country?
StarLink will solve all cellular issues down the road. 12,000 satellites orbiting the earth by Space-X. Cellular will go away too. Starlink is going to provide high speed broadband internet to the world for everyone anywhere in the world. It's already being used by 150,000 customers now. Satellite puck on the public safety vehicles and that's it. Its a game changer with the richest man in the world worth over 300 billion dollars.

Broadband phones. Cellular will be history. You will never have coverage issues anymore anywhere in the world. Everybody knows that those MDT's in public safety vehicles are so buggy with cellular cards in them. It's a joke. That's why you hear all the time "My MDT is down"

The Falcon rockets which pretty much goes up monthly now is taking 50 more internet satellites up into space on each mission. The technology is called laser vaccum. Pushing laser thru space is going to be just as fast or faster than fiber optics. Imagine that.

Elon Musk. He has changed the world. If he is going to build a city on Mars then the sky is the limit now.
 

KC3ECJ

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StarLink will solve all cellular issues down the road. 12,000 satellites orbiting the earth by Space-X. Cellular will go away too. Starlink is going to provide high speed broadband internet to the world for everyone anywhere in the world. It's already being used by 150,000 customers now. Satellite puck on the public safety vehicles and that's it. Its a game changer with the richest man in the world worth over 300 billion dollars.

Elon Musk. He has changed the world. If he is going to build a city on Mars then the sky is the limit now.
You some sort of salesman? You want to point out the disadvantages of such a system?
How's about it not working in the basement?
 

d119

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You some sort of salesman? You want to point out the disadvantages of such a system?
How's about it not working in the basement?
Holy crap that was funny and accurate all at the same time! PASS ME WHAT HE'S SMOKING! Oh wait... drug tests.

1642261842396.png
 

tsalmrsystemtech

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You some sort of salesman? You want to point out the disadvantages of such a system?
How's about it not working in the basement?
Yes, that was some good smoke. You do have a point. I guess LMR is here for a while then. Got to be careful California legalized that green stuff
 
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