Setting up my first GMRS Repeater

[thisguyneedsabeer]

I've had my GMRS license for about 3 years now and have never done anything with it. Recently a friend moved to the same city as myself and we're about 3 miles part (buildings in between us). I've checked on myGMRS and I don't see many open GMRS repeaters in our area, as a result... this seemed to a perfect time to setup our own GMRS repeater. That said, I have some questions.

1. We were looking at one of the two following bundles, both of us own our houses and have access to our roofs to place the antenna (both buildings are 3 stories). Would either of these be decent starter choices?
   1. Retevis RT97S (newer model than RT97): RT97S Portable GMRS Repeater Kit With FRP Antenna
   2. Midland MXR10VP: MXR10VP Midland Repeater Bundle
2. I'd like to eventually grow this repeater and share it out, at that stage I would like to control it remotely and self-ID (which I don't believe the top two options support natively). Would a VXR-7000 or similar be a good choice here? Do you have a better recommendation?
3. In the grand scheme of things, I would like to be able grow beyond analog and do a P25 repeater or other digital system.. is it even possible for an individual to buy (lease, I suppose?) a radio frequency from the FCC for personal (non-business) use. If business use is needed, would an LLC be sufficient?

I hope that was clear enough to get some basic feedback, I've been reliant on YouTube videos up to this point so forgive me if these are ridiculous questions and just tell me to search better.

 

[mmckenna]

I've had my GMRS license for about 3 years now and have never done anything with it. Recently a friend moved to the same city as myself and we're about 3 miles part (buildings in between us). I've checked on myGMRS and I don't see many open GMRS repeaters in our area, as a result... this seemed to a perfect time to setup our own GMRS repeater. That said, I have some questions.

Just a question:
Have you tried putting external antennas on your roof and just talking simplex?

1. We were looking at one of the two following bundles, both of us own our houses and have access to our roofs to place the antenna (both buildings are 3 stories). Would either of these be decent starter choices?
   1. Retevis RT97S (newer model than RT97): RT97S Portable GMRS Repeater Kit With FRP Antenna
   2. Midland MXR10VP: MXR10VP Midland Repeater Bundle

Both would be considered low end products and depending on the local RF noise levels, they could be poor performers. These are designed for consumer setup and low cost.
They are an option, but before you sink money into these, carefully consider what your long term plan is going to be. There are much better repeaters out there, however they cost more and set up is not easy.
https://midlandusa.com/products/mxr10vp-midland-repeater-bundle?avad=314421_e334139bd

• I'd like to eventually grow this repeater and share it out, at that stage I would like to control it remotely and self-ID (which I don't believe the top two options support natively). Would a VXR-7000 or similar be a good choice here? Do you have a better recommendation?

Per the FCC GMRS rules, the repeater is not required to ID. I don't know if these will support that or not, but good commercial repeaters will.

I'd figure out what your budget/skill level is before going much farther. The knowledge and equipment necessary to set up a repeater is considerable. It's not simple project.

• In the grand scheme of things, I would like to be able grow beyond analog and do a P25 repeater or other digital system.. is it even possible for an individual to buy (lease, I suppose?) a radio frequency from the FCC for personal (non-business) use. If business use is needed, would an LLC be sufficient?

No. You'd have to have a business to qualify for a business license. That isn't impossible, but it won't be easy.
Be careful about P25, it gets expensive and it really doesn't give you anything that DMR or NXDN cannot do. Radios that support P25 get expensive.
As I'm sure you know, digital is not current permitted under GMRS rules.

I hope that was clear enough to get some basic feedback, I've been reliant on YouTube videos up to this point so forgive me if these are ridiculous questions and just tell me to search better.

Setting up a repeater takes a lot of work and some expensive test equipment to do right. Consider all your options, as this will not necessarily be a cheap endeavor. The Midland/Retrivs repeater is a good way to get your feet wet, but don't expect great performance.

Also, consider amateur radio. If this is just for you and your friend to talk, ham radio may be a better solution as there are usually more repeaters.

I'd also point out that placing a repeater at your house to talk to your friend a few miles away is not necessarily a good application for a repeater. You'd do just as well by putting a base radio and good outdoor antenna at each home. Running simplex would give you what you need a whole lot cheaper.

 

[thisguyneedsabeer]

Just a question:
Have you tried putting external antennas on your roof and just talking simplex?



Both would be considered low end products and depending on the local RF noise levels, they could be poor performers. These are designed for consumer setup and low cost.
They are an option, but before you sink money into these, carefully consider what your long term plan is going to be. There are much better repeaters out there, however they cost more and set up is not easy.
MXR10VP Midland Repeater Bundle


Per the FCC GMRS rules, the repeater is not required to ID. I don't know if these will support that or not, but good commercial repeaters will.

I'd figure out what your budget/skill level is before going much farther. The knowledge and equipment necessary to set up a repeater is considerable. It's not simple project.



No. You'd have to have a business to qualify for a business license. That isn't impossible, but it won't be easy.
Be careful about P25, it gets expensive and it really doesn't give you anything that DMR or NXDN cannot do. Radios that support P25 get expensive.
As I'm sure you know, digital is not current permitted under GMRS rules.



Setting up a repeater takes a lot of work and some expensive test equipment to do right. Consider all your options, as this will not necessarily be a cheap endeavor. The Midland/Retrivs repeater is a good way to get your feet wet, but don't expect great performance.

Also, consider amateur radio. If this is just for you and your friend to talk, ham radio may be a better solution as there are usually more repeaters.

I'd also point out that placing a repeater at your house to talk to your friend a few miles away is not necessarily a good application for a repeater. You'd do just as well by putting a base radio and good outdoor antenna at each home. Running simplex would give you what you need a whole lot cheaper.

Thank you for an incredibly detailed reply.

I have not considered the Simplex option yet, I think my mind was focusing on having a GMRS repeater with PL tones to add some filtration from any other potential users on the publicly available GMRS frequencies. I was seeing a lot of folks hook repeaters (the ones I mentioned) into Zello so they can be used worldwide, being an Systems Engineer by trade I thought this would be a fun area to dive into.

I had looked at the Retevis and Midland series because of their mobile application. Long term (if I decide to stick with it) these would get stored away for deployment on the go for camping or hunting (hooked up to an external power supply or running off a vehicle via cigarette outlet).

I was only thinking P25 over DMR because I already have a handful of XTS2500's and 5000's that I picked up to toy around with while I was a bit more serious about the hobby.

 

[mmckenna]

Thank you for an incredibly detailed reply.

I have not considered the Simplex option yet, I think my mind was focusing on having a GMRS repeater with PL tones to add some filtration from any other potential users on the publicly available GMRS frequencies.

You can certainly run PL tones on simplex and get the same effect.

The repeater at your home would be overkill in this situation as it wouldn't add any additional range to your radio when working from home. Easier and cheaper to just put an antenna on your roof and plumb it right into your radio. For the usage you describe, a repeater wouldn't be warranted.
If you could put the repeater at a 3rd location that was higher up and had better coverage, then a repeater would make sense.


Or, it's a hobby. If you want to set up a repeater for the technical challenge of it, then go for it.

I was seeing a lot of folks hook repeaters (the ones I mentioned) into Zello so they can be used worldwide, being an Systems Engineer by trade I thought this would be a fun area to dive into.

Again, still totally doable with simplex.

I had looked at the Retevis and Midland series because of their mobile application. Long term (if I decide to stick with it) these would get stored away for deployment on the go for camping or hunting (hooked up to an external power supply or running off a vehicle via cigarette outlet).

Good option to have.

Repeaters are all about location and antenna. If you are going to try this, one thing you can do is buy a really good antenna first, install it at your house and try it out with simplex. You can always add the repeater later.

I was only thinking P25 over DMR because I already have a handful of XTS2500's and 5000's that I picked up to toy around with while I was a bit more serious about the hobby.

OK. P25 capable repeaters get expensive. Your radios will do analog, so that is always an option.

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

Here is a used Kenwood TKR-840-1 Repeater (the -1 is the correct band for GMRS) The seller will program.

It is a 5 watt repeater. You will need a duplexer. But it is a quality product.

KENWOOD TKR-840 Repeater, 450-480 MHz | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for KENWOOD TKR-840 Repeater, 450-480 MHz at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!

www.ebay.com

 

[thisguyneedsabeer]

Here is a used Kenwood TKR-840-1 Repeater (the -1 is the correct band for GMRS) The seller will program.

It is a 5 watt repeater. You will need a duplexer. But it is a quality product.

KENWOOD TKR-840 Repeater, 450-480 MHz | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for KENWOOD TKR-840 Repeater, 450-480 MHz at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!

www.ebay.com

That's not a bad deal at all, I'll have to do some research to see if it will self-ID and support any sort of web-management as well as what is required for programming. I can't imagine a repeater is harder to program for GMRS than navigating the mess that is the ASTRO CPS.

 

[prcguy]

If and when you get serious forget about the Yeasu, Kenwood and Midland stuff and shop for a good used Motorola Quantar. There are plenty of good deals on these and not long ago a friend and I purchased four perfect working units off Fleabay for $600 each including shipping. These even have a built in "community tone panel" where you can assign different tones or DPLs to friends and track their use. The typical range 2 Quantar is a 110 watt continuous duty station and when backed off to 50 watts for GMRS it should outlive the sun.

You will also need a good duplexer and a decent 4 can pass/reject with 85dB isolation can be had for under $200.

 

[thisguyneedsabeer]

If and when you get serious forget about the Yeasu, Kenwood and Midland stuff and shop for a good used Motorola Quantar. There are plenty of good deals on these and not long ago a friend and I purchased four perfect working units off Fleabay for $600 each including shipping. These even have a built in "community tone panel" where you can assign different tones or DPLs to friends and track their use. The typical range 2 Quantar is a 110 watt continuous duty station and when backed off to 50 watts for GMRS it should outlive the sun.

You will also need a good duplexer and a decent 4 can pass/reject with 85dB isolation can be had for under $200.

I mean, I'm all about buy once, cry once. If you have a link to anything you recommended I'd definitely check it out. I'm more familiar with Motorola than anything else.

Edit: Would this be a good deal? Looks like it'll do what I need and has ethernet. I'd need to lookup the manual to see what configuration is available but it's a more "quality" repeater I would think.

MOTOROLA XPR8400 UHF 40 WATT REPEATER, TECHNICIAN CERTIFIED, 90 DAY WARRANTY

MOTOROLA XPR8400 UHF 40 WATT REPEATER, TECHNICIAN CERTIFIED, 90 DAY WARRANTY | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for MOTOROLA XPR8400 UHF 40 WATT REPEATER, TECHNICIAN CERTIFIED, 90 DAY WARRANTY at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!

www.ebay.com

 

[thisguyneedsabeer]

I can't edit my post (> 30 min), but I see now that's a digital repeater, and not an analog repeater, so that would not work. Now y'all got me wanting to buy something "better." I'm trying to keep this project under $2,000 for a GOOD repeater that I can program, and monitor. If I can get it working between me and my bud, I would definitely want to "open" it to the public (post it on myGMRS/here) but only after I have a good handle on how whichever model I end up with is managed.

 

[prcguy]

I can't edit my post (> 30 min), but I see now that's a digital repeater, and not an analog repeater, so that would not work. Now y'all got me wanting to buy something "better." I'm trying to keep this project under $2,000 for a GOOD repeater that I can program, and monitor. If I can get it working between me and my bud, I would definitely want to "open" it to the public (post it on myGMRS/here) but only after I have a good handle on how whichever model I end up with is managed.

Yup, the 8400s are usually bought for DMR use and its an ok price for that but not what you want. That repeater is basically a couple of mobile chassis inside where the Quantar is a purpose built repeater from the ground up and was their top of the line not that long ago.

I don't have any good Quantar sources at the moment but I usually watch eBay and check several time a day. Just when it seems impossible, that perfect deal shows up and you need to be there to snag it.

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

That's not a bad deal at all, I'll have to do some research to see if it will self-ID and support any sort of web-management as well as what is required for programming. I can't imagine a repeater is harder to program for GMRS than navigating the mess that is the ASTRO CPS.

I found mine for about $330 shipped, which was steal. It does ID and you can program multi-PL as well as multiple channels. The software and USB cable are on e-bay. Just be sure to search for TKR-840 , not TK840 as that is a mobile. It is easy to program.

 

[thisguyneedsabeer]

I found mine for about $330 shipped, which was steal. It does ID and you can program multi-PL as well as multiple channels. The software and USB cable are on e-bay. Just be sure to search for TKR-840 , not TK840 as that is a mobile. It is easy to program.

Awesome, I will keep that in mind. The 5W re-transmit has me a bit nervous as this is a pretty major city with a buildings a plenty.. I guess we should test simplex first, and then go from there to see what's what (handheld, and then base). The appealing thing is that the Kenwood is looking a bit easier to source than than anything Motorola at the moment.

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

Awesome, I will keep that in mind. The 5W re-transmit has me a bit nervous as this is a pretty major city with a buildings a plenty.. I guess we should test simplex first, and then go from there to see what's what (handheld, and then base). The appealing thing is that the Kenwood is looking a bit easier to source than than anything Motorola at the moment.

You can very easily add an amplifier to these, unlike the Retevis and Midland which are not much more powerful. The receiver in the TKR-840 is far superior to the Retevis/Midland and that will matter greatly in an urban area.

 

[mmckenna]

Awesome, I will keep that in mind. The 5W re-transmit has me a bit nervous as this is a pretty major city with a buildings a plenty.. I guess we should test simplex first, and then go from there to see what's what (handheld, and then base). The appealing thing is that the Kenwood is looking a bit easier to source than than anything Motorola at the moment.

Don't get hung up on RF power if this is going to be installed on top of your home. Without the antenna up really high, the increased power isn't going to make that much of a difference.
On the other hand, if you have plans to eventually move this to a higher site, then the Quantar might be a better choice.

Before you pull the trigger on one of these, make sure you understand all the components involved. It's difficult to do "plug-n-play" and have a well working system. You can't use cheap coax on a repeater. The antenna will make or break the system.

Just be sure to plan everything out really well and have an appropriate budget.

 

[thisguyneedsabeer]

You can very easily add an amplifier to these, unlike the Retevis and Midland which are not much more powerful. The receiver in the TKR-840 is far superior to the Retevis/Midland and that will matter greatly in an urban area.

Amplifiers... duh, I feel kinda silly that I completely spaced on those. Good call!

Don't get hung up on RF power if this is going to be installed on top of your home. Without the antenna up really high, the increased power isn't going to make that much of a difference.
On the other hand, if you have plans to eventually move this to a higher site, then the Quantar might be a better choice.

Before you pull the trigger on one of these, make sure you understand all the components involved. It's difficult to do "plug-n-play" and have a well working system. You can't use cheap coax on a repeater. The antenna will make or break the system.

Just be sure to plan everything out really well and have an appropriate budget.

I will certainly be posting here before I purchase anything at all. I really appreciate y'all taking the time to get a newb hobbyist up to snuff.

 

[MTS2000des]

Without repeating what other experienced people have said, repeaters are only good if someone with the technical skill set, proper test equipment, and more importantly, a suitable site. Even then one will spend hours and thousands optimizing and "dialing things in" to get a duplex system working well.

Transmitting into the same antenna you're receiving on is a black art. Duplex filters, band pass filters, feedline, antenna choice, and things like the RF noise floor in the area all come into play. There is nothing about repeaters that are "plug and play" like subscriber radios.

I've put up several in my career in public safety communications and quite a few on the amateur side. They are a time, money and resource vampire. Work is never done. These are not "set and forget" systems by far.

 

[paulears]

I have to smile. I have a repeater on my house. Mainly because my house is higher than my office, but the fact is while my house is high it's not at the top of the hill - so takeoff to the North is terrible, to the South, it's better. The result is about 3 miles accessable from the south on a handheld, and about a mile-ish north. In other words, pretty poor. In my van it's maybe 5 miles south and 1.5 miles the other way. In other words, terrible. Good repeater (Kenwood), decent antenna (commercial grade), proper cable and decent filters. Geography is everything!

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

There is nothing wrong with setting up a cheap simplex (parrot) repeater to get same utility and learn more about your terrain.

 

[prcguy]

Without repeating what other experienced people have said, repeaters are only good if someone with the technical skill set, proper test equipment, and more importantly, a suitable site. Even then one will spend hours and thousands optimizing and "dialing things in" to get a duplex system working well.

Transmitting into the same antenna you're receiving on is a black art. Duplex filters, band pass filters, feedline, antenna choice, and things like the RF noise floor in the area all come into play. There is nothing about repeaters that are "plug and play" like subscriber radios.

I've put up several in my career in public safety communications and quite a few on the amateur side. They are a time, money and resource vampire. Work is never done. These are not "set and forget" systems by far.

Absolutely on the skill, test equipment and suitable site to achieve success. I've built many commercial sites and assembled lots of amateur repeaters and they can be set and forget in most cases if you use known good components for that particular site. A low power repeater at a home with no communications towers nearby can usually get away with a mobile flat pack duplexer where a repeater at an established site will need a $$ fortune in duplexer and/or front end components to survive, but that's already been figured out by others at that site. At that point its obtaining the components and installing/aligning them for maximum performance.

If you go into a commercial repeater site using a duplexer you will want a very high performance and expensive duplexer and probably extra band pass cans on the receive side plus and isolator on the transmitter. Think lots of $$. You will be fighting to keep other radio systems at that site from buggering up your own receiver or mixing with your transmitter and trashing out the site with IMD. If you want to explore a receive preamp that takes a lot of measurements to prove it will work and possibly more front end filtering. The coax will most certainly be Heliax and you can't just Ty-Rap it to the tower leg on the way to the antenna, the site owner will require you to use proper and costly Heliax hangers and may not even let you do the install due to insurance requirements and you may have to hire an antenna crew to install the antenna and Heliax at a commercial site. Think more $$ and probably $2.5K for the crew to install your antenna and feedline on a major tower.

I've installed repeaters at some of the worst RF hell sites in the US, most notably 5,700 ft Mt Wilson where nearly all the TV and radio stations live serving So Cal, plus I've had my own sites in So Cal at Santiago Peak, Mt Lukens, Sierra Peak and others, all over 3K ft. At Mt Wilson there are about 25 TV transmitters and 20 FM transmitters plus an unknown amount of commercial VHF/UHF/700/800 commercial systems. If you turn on your Narda RF safety monitor, something you use when climbing a commercial tower to let you know your exceeding FCC/OSHA RF levels by getting too close to an active antenna, that monitor will just go off constantly on the ground in many areas of Mt Wilson. Just being there with the tens of millions of watts of RF being radiated can be dangerous to humans and sometimes impossible to keep out of your own personal repeater system.

So if and when you want to break out of the house and go with a commercial repeater site be prepared to learn a lot and spend a lot. Plus the better the site the more busy it will be and the harder it will be for your repeater to survive there.

 

[alcahuete]

I can't edit my post (> 30 min), but I see now that's a digital repeater, and not an analog repeater, so that would not work.

The XPR8400 absolutely does analog. It does DMR, analog, and with the Dynamic Mixed Mode entitlement, will actually do both "simultaneously." I put simultaneously in quotes since analog will only repeat analog, DMR will only repeat DMR, and both can't be used at the same time, i.e. if somebody is talking on DMR, you can't use the analog side of the repeater.

While not as robust as the Quantar, they are great repeaters. And if you're looking for some sort of portability while camping, you aren't going to be dragging a Quantar anywhere. Stick a XPR8400 in a 19" rack pelican case, and portable you go. They aren't exactly lightweight, but still portable enough.

As was said, you can't use DMR on GMRS.