Sevierville PD is not where they say they are.

[kayn1n32008]

mmm

not sure exactly what you're driving at, but I'm willing to hear you out

As in you don’t have any real RF knowledge about RF other than what you read about here.

You have no real world experience using modern digital voice equipment other than maybe using it for work, or only listen using a scanner.

You have zero experience or understanding of modern software DSP, modern noise cancelation technology and modern vocoder technology.

At least that’s what your post I quoted seems to say.

You talk about the testing of IMBE and the issues with back ground noise from testing in the early/mid 90’s but completely discount the technology changes. This shows complete ignorance to technology changes.

 

[toddnbarbie]

Pigeon Forge Police is on Tennessee Advanced Communications Network (TACN) p25 and their primary site is Greentop it seems. Last time I checked not too long ago their old p25 system site was not changed into TACN. The talkgroups are phase I FDMA and unencrypted (at least the dispatch one is).Seymour Fire is on VHF analog because they are dispatched by Knox Fire (AMR/Rural Metro), Blount Comm, and Sevier Central. Their dispatch frequency is 154.310. There is a countywide dispatch to dispatch channel that is analog (460.500) for the different law enforcement dispatch/911 centers to talk to central 911 dispatch (dispatches all fire and ems/initial 911 answering). EMS is paged on 462.950 MHZ. All fire departments are paged on 454.100 MHZ and Sevierville FD is also paged on 451.400. For Gatlinburg PD, Gatlinburg FD, Sevier EMS, Sevier Sheriff, Pittman center police, Sevierville Fire, all county fire, and pigeon forge fire are dispatched on the Land Air Nexedge UHF rental trunking system fully encrypted. Dollywood and their other stuff is still on analog LTR. Their security I think deputized by the Sheriff. Sevier county electric is DMR uhf. National park service is p25 with a linked repeater system and utilize very little encryption. For Sevierville Police, they were on their nexedge conventional frequency of 460.075 MHz unencrypted but they may have went to the land air trunking system for primary comms now. Which they would be encrypted if they are that system most likely.

thanks
What a mix bag of radio systems

 

[INDY72]

thanks
What a mix bag of radio systems

LOL Sevier County has always been such a joy to try to monitor.... They seem determined to to be as mixed up as possible on purpose for many years. The barely legal/illegalities of some of the ways things are done radio wise is well documented on this site.

 

[Firebuff66]

As in you don’t have any real RF knowledge about RF other than what you read about here.

You have no real world experience using modern digital voice equipment other than maybe using it for work, or only listen using a scanner.

You have zero experience or understanding of modern software DSP, modern noise cancellation technology and modern vocoder technology.

At least that’s what your post I quoted seems to say.

You talk about the testing of IMBE and the issues with back ground noise from testing in the early/mid 90’s but completely discount the technology changes. This shows complete ignorance to technology changes.

WOW When i was reading what this guy was putting out I thought it was some sort of joke

Im still inclined to think he is trolling...He is talking all 1990s info, and the 800 is worse in a city is great a trolling carrot to dangle for people who actually know RF.
Anyone who is really in this business will know that anything on the internet older than 12 months is old technology and has likely been fixed with firmware/dsp upgrades already

Im going with troll, and he has done his job sucking people into it LOL

 

[jim202]

I would like to point out to SURFACE MOUNT that both Motorola and Harris can not afford to build a P25 trunking system that doesn't provide a system the end users can use with minimum problems. It would keep them in court for a long time.

Let me point out the Louisiana state trunking system. It is controlled by the state and has good coverage state wide. Matter of fact, you can go just about any where in the state and be able to talk back to your own dispatch without even changing talk groups. Depending where your at, determines how many voice channels are available. If your out in the middle of no mans land, you can expect a limited number of voice channels.

An example of fine coverage can be found in Saint Tammany Parish. It is part of the LWIN system, but has a simulcast system there with 8 tower sites. Each tower is connected to each other by Microwave loop. Then there is a microwave link going back to Baton Rouge where the main switch is located. At each tower site there are 17 voice channels and the active control channel. At each site is a generator for backup power. The towers are rated for 150 MPH steady winds. The microwave dishes all have side arms on them to keep from the wind blowing them off path. This area is prone to hurricanes, so the sites are hardened.

As Saint Tammany Parish is located across the big lake from New Orleans, it is a bedroom area for many public safety workers. So the system was over built for capacity. There have been times where the system is very busy. But I have not heard any complaints from any user so far. Even the Coast Guard and both the Army and Air National Guard units are on the system.

In this region we have the long needle pine trees. So the towers are spaced closer than you would normally see in other parts of the country. Even the cellular towers are spaced closer. These trees grow to an average height of around 120 feet. Their needles are just about the length of where the 700 and 800 frequencies are the same length. This needle length causes a high attenuation to the 700 MHz. signals. So you can start to understand why the closer tower spacing around here.

Bottom line is encryption and open communications works well on the 700 trunking system called LWIN around here. It does help to understand how and why the system is built , or how well or how poorly a trunking system works when comments are being made about it.

Jim

 

[icom1020]

We used 37.26 for law enforcement here late 70's - beginning of the 80's. I don't remember what fire and EMS was prior to VHF-Hi band. Those signals carried really well in our area, too far when skip occurred.

800 analog trunking was rough here. Only one county went to it around 1991, then a city followed suit. Everybody else remained VHF/UHF analog conventional repeater until TVRCS rolled through the last few years. 700Mhz was a television frequency, there wasn't even purpose-built LMR subscriber units what, ten years ago?

The reason why 800 can get better coverage for the same reasons cell phones get better coverage; due to the physics of the wavelength and power output, you gotta add more remote sites to get adequate RF density. 800 is no good in urban areas due to concrete and multipath; it is no good in rural due to fade and trees.

It's so bad that the Fire Service people are pushing new regulations for dwellings and commercial establishments that mandate RF walkthroughs, and require owners to do something if the building has large enough dead zones. You say you're fire service, you guys were the first to sue because the original vocoder in P25 systems blew a gasket if there was a running apparatus or an active PASS in the background; that's part of the genesis of the so-called XTREME noise reduction system.

Again, I fully support ensuring responders don't have to worry about their radio as part of all the things they need to be concerned about on a call; that's why I'm so vocal about the topic. Gotta run, I'll try to check back in this weekend.

I was an explorer circa 1978 in Sevierville, the 460 was SPD idea around 1976 then Gatlinburg and Pigeon Forge wanted in so it was 3 cities on one freq, Gatlinburg had the only NCIC machine in the county SO it was 4 agencies sharing one machine to check licenses and warrants. Sevier County was still on 37.26 and called GPD on lo band as "station 1" for their access. Land Air was always getting the "contract" as GE MASTR II mobiles were the norm along with the GE portables . The repeater was on Ski Mtn Rd and had some dead spots out towards the fairgrounds. Sevier Co Ambulance was on 155.205 (statewide) freq with a remote on one of the hills. There was a 453.000 relay on Bluff Mtn I believe which carried all the traffic from .205 that it could hear. Ambulances going into Knoxville would call on 155.205 to "K-comm " with a special end of transmision beep as Knox Co Ambulance dispatch would act as a liaison to keep track of outside ambulances entering the county. Fire was still on VHF hi. Rescue Squad was still on 37.9

 

[surfacemount]

As in you don’t have any real RF knowledge about RF other than what you read about here.

You have no real world experience using modern digital voice equipment other than maybe using it for work, or only listen using a scanner.

You have zero experience or understanding of modern software DSP, modern noise cancelation technology and modern vocoder technology.

At least that’s what your post I quoted seems to say.

Swing and a miss. I hold a commercial and an amateur license, as well as industry certifications, as well as experience in LMR (commercial and public safety) and broadcast (FM and AM) going back to 1985.

Oh, and as a user, first issued trunked radio was a MTX800, then the STX821 with a pigsticker because the radio wouldn't receive well in an urban environment with any of the more compact antennas.

WOW When i was reading what this guy was putting out I thought it was some sort of joke

Im still inclined to think he is trolling...He is talking all 1990s info, and the 800 is worse in a city is great a trolling carrot to dangle for people who actually know RF.
Anyone who is really in this business will know that anything on the internet older than 12 months is old technology and has likely been fixed with firmware/dsp upgrades already

Im going with troll, and he has done his job sucking people into it LOL

Also a miss. I know RF ok. I've also gotten to watch shootouts with the same radio type in VHF-hi band, UHF, and 800, and saw personally what was more likely to receive in a 5 story building versus a trailer home vs a modern construction dwelling. Having to add more sites to get an acceptable db footprint doesn't equal = system works better. There's a reason they invented micro and pico cells for the phone industry, and it's not just capacity building.

I would like to point out to SURFACE MOUNT that both Motorola and Harris can not afford to build a P25 trunking system that doesn't provide a system the end users can use with minimum problems. It would keep them in court for a long time.

But, they ARE in court over trunking failures. Right now. Today. AND, at least moto has a history of doing this. Two deputies were almost killed in Knox County based on motorola engineers saying, oh, you can cover the areas with n number of towers.

Let me point out the Louisiana state trunking system. (snip)

So the system was over built for capacity. There have been times where the system is very busy. But I have not heard any complaints from any user so far. Even the Coast Guard and both the Army and Air National Guard units are on the system.

MSI has a mathematical formula that arrives at a certain number to quantify this. It would be telling to see what that number is. You may not hear a lot of grumbling because those users may be indoctrinated to believe that what they are experiencing IS good radio. It would be hard to say, and I can't really offer an opinion there except for seeing that the system was 'overbuilt' and still 'busy'. (shrugs)

In this region we have the long needle pine trees. So the towers are spaced closer than you would normally see in other parts of the country. Even the cellular towers are spaced closer. These trees grow to an average height of around 120 feet. Their needles are just about the length of where the 700 and 800 frequencies are the same length. This needle length causes a high attenuation to the 700 MHz. signals. So you can start to understand why the closer tower spacing around here.

Well, the two posters above you apparently don't believe in foliage loss as part of total path loss, so don't offer them a real-world example.

Bottom line is encryption and open communications works well on the 700 trunking system called LWIN around here. It does help to understand how and why the system is built , or how well or how poorly a trunking system works when comments are being made about it.

Agree completely, and I'm glad you feel your system is working to your expectations. Again, I remain firmly on the side of the public safety end user, and not sales brochures/back room deals. Trunking wasn't invented with mission critical emergency communications in mind, it was a way to make more money off ship-to-shore telephony, and land-based people wanting to shoehorn more subscribers into fewer (co$tly) frequencies.

DoD is moving towards mesh, and not trunking. AMBE is why satellite radio sounds like trash. DVSI released AMBE+2 for a reason... over ten years ago, the same vocoder MSI touts as 'the latest technology'. Latest, based on a 1988 algo.

There's a lot I just don't know. But every post of mine has information that can be googled and checked. All either of you two have said is yeah-huh, trunking is cool! lol Show us a study that motorola, harris or DVSI hasn't funded talking about how well the stuff works. Go in the APCO forums and ask them what they think about the systems. (I have.) MTUG's annual ended on the 16th, or I'd suggest to go ask them out of batwings' earshot what is concerning engineers and managers across the country right now. I'm not intending to troll; I am trying to offer what I know to the Tennessee community here on rr.

anyway (whew)

I know none of you read all that, so here's the point: LTE is going to kill trunking. It's coming, I hope your portfolios aren't concentrated on MSI's land mobile. lol

 

[surfacemount]

I was an explorer circa 1978 in Sevierville, the 460 was SPD idea around 1976 then Gatlinburg and Pigeon Forge wanted in so it was 3 cities on one freq, Gatlinburg had the only NCIC machine in the county SO it was 4 agencies sharing one machine to check licenses and warrants. Sevier County was still on 37.26 and called GPD on lo band as "station 1" for their access. Land Air was always getting the "contract" as GE MASTR II mobiles were the norm along with the GE portables . The repeater was on Ski Mtn Rd and had some dead spots out towards the fairgrounds. Sevier Co Ambulance was on 155.205 (statewide) freq with a remote on one of the hills. There was a 453.000 relay on Bluff Mtn I believe which carried all the traffic from .205 that it could hear. Ambulances going into Knoxville would call on 155.205 to "K-comm " with a special end of transmision beep as Knox Co Ambulance dispatch would act as a liaison to keep track of outside ambulances entering the county. Fire was still on VHF hi. Rescue Squad was still on 37.9

I had a buddy that was Ski Patrol up there in the early 80's, and he echoes what you've said here. I just bet y'all could hear more than we could when skip was right! (We talked to a Texas agency one time, maybe it was AZ, I forget, but it was weird! Same frequency, same tone, everything...) The people I know up there now have either quit or retired in the last 18 months, so I don't really have any current insights.

 

[kayn1n32008]

Swing and a miss. I hold a commercial and an amateur license, as well as industry certifications, as well as experience in LMR (commercial and public safety) and broadcast (FM and AM) going back to 1985.

You don’t come anywhere close to talking like it.

Oh, and as a user, first issued trunked radio was a MTX800, then the STX821 with a pigsticker because the radio wouldn't receive well in an urban environment with any of the more compact antennas.

Was that the band choice? Or was it due to bean counters refusing to fund the system adequately?

Having to add more sites to get an acceptable db footprint doesn't equal = system works better.

No, it not ‘system works better, it’s ‘system works to specified conditions.

There's a reason they invented micro and pico cells for the phone industry, and it's not just capacity building.

Yea it’s called ROI. When a rural cell site on a 100m tower cost over $1,000,000 to build, Pico and Fento cells are a more cost effective solution to the carrier.

But, they ARE in court over trunking failures. Right now. Today. AND, at least moto has a history of doing this. Two deputies were almost killed in Knox County based on motorola engineers saying, oh, you can cover the areas with n number of towers...

... for the budget you have to work with.

You left out the critical part. Budget.

I live in Alberta. Alberta has built out a 300+ site P25 phase 1 system. The lowest site RF channel count is 4, the largest, a simulcast cell, is like 26. Majority of it is on 700MHz, there are also a handful of VHF conventional sites, some solar powered, in the mountains of western Alberta, and the far north where the population and terrain won’t support using 700Mhz.

Originally the province wanted a system that would provide portable coverage through out Alberta(255,500sq. Miles, This is over 6 times larger than Tennessee) and the cost was likely somewhere around 1.5billion dollars. Instead they bought a network of over 300 sites that provides mobile coverage on 1, 2, and 3 digit highways. VHF or UHF would have been significantly challenging due to piss poor spectrum management in this province.

MSI has a mathematical formula that arrives at a certain number to quantify this. It would be telling to see what that number is. You may not hear a lot of grumbling because those users may be indoctrinated to believe that what they are experiencing IS good radio.

And that ‘number’ is mostly influenced by a customers budget. You always leave out the budget part, and want to blame performance issues on Motorola. Why is that?

Trunking wasn't invented with mission critical emergency communications in mind, it was a way to make more money off ship-to-shore telephony, and land-based people wanting to shoehorn more subscribers into fewer (co$tly) frequencies.

Trunking was born out of necessity of running out of spectrum.

Ultimately a PS system is going to perform as well as it’s funded. Period.

Example with made up numbers:

200 sites to provide on hip, in building coverage? Ok it’s going to cost you about $225 million. Minimum RF channel count is 6

Need 150 sites to provide portable on street coverage? Ok it’s going to cost you $160 million minimum RF channel count is 5

Need 75 sites to provide mobile coverage on primary and secondary highways? $80 million. Minimum RF channel count is 4

*purchase 75 site system

Users one month after operationally switching over after the system is accepted by the government... *hey my radio doesn’t work inside buildings and I keep getting busies, this system sucks.

 

[surfacemount]

You don’t come anywhere close to talking like it.

Well, it's a fact. I also left out I'm certified by APCO, and have a bachelors' degree. I'm certain I've forgotten some other salient parts of my cv. (shrugs)

And that ‘number’ is mostly influenced by a customers budget. You always leave out the budget part, and want to blame performance issues on Motorola. Why is that?

I've rewritten this response six times now. I don't need the new breed of lawyers coming after me.
All I will say, is; New York City has truckloads of money, especially post-9/11, to throw at communications. Are they happy with MSI? Miami is the same. Are they happy?

From a news article in Cincinatti, OH:

"Since the report of our possible legal action against Motorola was circulated I have been contacted by a handful of agencies having similar issues. Why was this technology pushed and accepted before it was ready? What steps should be taken to defend the officers who defend us all?"

The guy above said that their system was 'overbuilt', yet it remains 'busy'. Why would that be the case?

Sometimes, it's not the old 'we propose this, they start beancounting and shaving that, we install what they say, then they get mad that it doesn't work like they want'... no budget can fix it.

Trunking was born out of necessity of running out of spectrum.

Disagree. Trunking was invented before radios that could touch 2/3 of currently available spectrum or waveforms were available.

Minimum RF channel count is 4

That right there is one of my issues. That's fair weather capacity. One of those is the control channel, so it's useless. Even with Phase II P25, how fast is that site going to busy out at a medium-sized incident? From experience, really, REALLY fast.

It might work if it's a simulcast system with several close sites to choose from. In TN there are some counties with only one or two sites. How can motorola in good conscience sign off on a system they know is only going to work when nothing is happening?

Another notional example, say a TN Department of Corrections supervisor lives in one county and works in another. He decides to bring his radio home so he can monitor what his troops are doing when he is off. Should this cause a degradation of the system to the point they have to start geofencing??

This is the kind of stuff I have to lay at motorola's feet. A person can ask for a new car with no bumpers, but you'd be a fool to sell it to them.

 

[davewhall29]

I was in Sevier County last week. I confirmed PFPD Tac 1 TG on the TACN and submitted it. Partially encrypted. I heard numerous encrypted TGs on the NXDN trunking system, including 1001, several in the 20s and 30s, and a few others. Obviously I won't be able to ID any of those since they are fully encrypted. I'm going back when I have more time to spend up there to try and figure some other things out. While I was up there I did not hear anything on the Sevierville PD conventional NXDN channels, and very little on any of the other conventional channels.

 

[fredva]

The way to end up with good coverage on a new trunking system is to hire an independent consultant to determine the requirements such as number of repeaters, then allow vendors to bid based on those established requirements.

 

[MikeSmith0096]

Pigeon Forge just got added to TACN unencrypted, and they use this System Pigeon Forge Public Safety Trunking System, Pigeon Forge, Tennessee - Scanner Frequencies. Have you tried scanning the two LTR Systems and maybe try scanning the Pigeon P25 System, maybe they are trying to be sneaking. I am from Tennesee originally and have scanned Sevier county NXDN system and heard Law on there. Also maybe they have migrated back to conventional frequencies, just throwing out ideas for solutions

Is Gatlinburg on the same channel as Pigeon Forge??

 

[johnoconnor98]

The way to end up with good coverage on a new trunking system is to hire an independent consultant to determine the requirements such as number of repeaters, then allow vendors to bid based on those established requirements.

There are two things that no consultant will ever, ever do.
Make a decision the customer can hold them to, or finish a project before the budget runs out.