Shipman Communications LTR-Collin, Fannin & Grayson Coun

[SCPD]

I am Just Stumped with this LTR Stuff. I can Not figure out How Shipman Comm. Operate this LTR System. I'll Give you all the Basics, then Try and relay the Problem. and See if maybe, Just maybe. We Can get this System Propperly ID'd.

There are 3 sites:

WPLU622 Bells, Tx-Fannin Co. [YK] Designator.
Bill Shipman D.B.A. Shipman Communications

461.9750
462.0000
464.2250
466.9750
467.0000
469.2250

System is located on Fannin CR (County Road) 4030 4 MI S.E. of Bells.

WPFT711 Bells, Tx-Fannin Co. [YG] Designator (Community Repeater)
Billy Shipman D.B.A. Shipman Communications

461.7000
463.8750
466.7000
468.8750

System is Located on Fannin CR (County Road) 4030 4 MI S.E. of Bells

WNFN828 Weston, Tx-Collin Co. [YG] Designator (Community Repeater)
Shipman Communications Inc.

461.7250
462.0250
466.7250
467.0250

System is located off I-75 and FM 455 between Weston and Anna, Tx.

OK, What I get Good LTR Modulation from is this:

461.9750-WPLU622-Bells
461.7250-WNFN828-Weston
462.0000-WPLU622-Bells

461.7000 is the Primary Repeater for Fannin Co. Co-op Electric in Bonham. it's a PL tones Conventional Repeater which is busy as heck.

464.2250 is Like dead all the time with no Intermitten LTR Squelch break, as is 462.0250 and 463.8750.

What I am getting is Good LTR ID and full conversations on:
461.9750
461.7250
462.0000

and the Squelch Break is virtually the same on all 3 frequencies.

The TG-ID's Include:

101002-Trenton LPG Gas
101001-Radio Techs
101024-Whitewright Ambulance
102044-City/County Towing (I think) (Towing Co. in Collin Co.)
102202-Cains Trash Service
101008-Whitewright Gravel
101032-Crittenden Propane-Bonham
102224-UNID
101012-Towing Co. in Savoy Texas

Can this system Operate off Two seperate tower systems? and under two seperate FCC Classifications [YG & YK]? What type of LTR system is this? Passport? Multi-Net? I am not hearing any Digital or Data Burst being sent, No One is Encrypted or Scrambled. I am just Dumb Founded when it comes to ID-ing a LTR System.

Does ANYONE have any clues as to what this system is, Why its Licensed the way it is, are the dead Channels Back-up's if the system ever gets real Busy?

Anyways, any and all help would be appriciated.

MT

 

[pro92b]

LTR system configuration is at the whim of the local comm company. The file at http://home.hvc.rr.com/bpetrow/ltr.htm may help explain some of the possibilities.

 

[scanfan03]

If you are getting TG hits on that LTR system, than it is definately a regular LTR system, because no scanner can get a TG hit from LTR passport or multi-net. Now if you aren't getting TG hits than it is either passport or multi-net.

 

[ericcarlson]

Re: Shipman Communications LTR-Collin, Fannin & Grayson

What I am getting is Good LTR ID and full conversations on:
461.9750
461.7250
462.0000

Can this system Operate off Two seperate tower systems? and under two seperate FCC Classifications [YG & YK]? What type of LTR system is this?

This is a regular LTR system if you are able to get talkgroups for it from a LTR-capable scanner. It seems that you are putting way too much faith in the FCC data. First of all, for all practical purposes a YG vs. YK license means nothing. Second, just because freqs are on different licenses and/or licensed at different locations doesn't mean they're actually separate systems.

Each LTR regular system is an independent system. The only way to confirm if you are listening to one or more systems is to note which talkgroups show up on which repeaters (from this you can determine which repeaters are in the same system). Talkgroups will show up on their respective home repeater unless that repeater is already in use, in which case they will shift to another repeater in the system.

The LTR idle data burst usually occurs about every 10 seconds on a regular LTR system, although there are exceptions. Some channels, particularly those not used as a home channel, may not have an idle data burst; these channels are more difficult to identify.

To make sense of the system you must note which talkgroups you hear on which repeaters. As you collect more data you will be able to gain an understanding of how the repeaters are related.

-Eric

 

[SCPD]

Thanks Eric.

TG-ID's 101002, 101008, 101024, 101032 & 101012 Are for the most hitting off 461.9750. the rest on 461.7250 and 462.0000 seems to have almost zero traffic. however, when it does The TG will have a Key up hum and a PTT Release Squelch Tail Identicle to the other two frequencies when they are used.

In Addition, I have a UHF Beam Yagi pointed directly at the Repeater site in Bells. Tuned for 460 to 470Mhz. and when I am listening to these Frequencies they all have specific sound traits that are identicle to each other, Hum's ect. so I do Believe 461.9750 is a Part of 462.0000 then when I turn the yagi to Anna, Again, virtually the same sound charecteristics can be monitored. Including 1 or 2 TG-ID's bouncing over to 461.7250 with the same user. which has led me to the belief the three frequencies were part of one existing system on two sites.

When I got lost was in thinking a LTR System HAD to all be on one tower like a Motorola Smartzone system would.

Shipman Communications claim to not be interested in Passport or MPT Systems, But! They do not deny having interest in Multi-net. I believe they have a Multi-Net system in the Durant OK. area.

Also, Bill Shipman is a Motorola man, So, His systems are all constructed of Motorola LTR Equipment, The Repeater to the HT it's all Motorola, so, It does sound a bit differant then Listening to a Kenwood or ICOM LTR System.

pro92b. I am actually trying to ID this system with a Pro-2067 which is tapped mind you. so if you have any sugestions I am all ears.

Thanks again everyone, Man, LTR is some technical and BooKoo Confusing stuff.

 

[pro92b]

With a PRO-2067 and an ordinary data slicer you can run LTRtrunk and LTRdump. That will make it easy to figure out the system. See http://www.radioreference.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=10490&highlight= for connection details.

 

[EricCottrell]

Hello,

It is alot better to use a low pass filtered data slicer like the one mentioned here.
http://www.radioreference.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=13427

Motorola radios like the HT1250 LS+ can do Regular LTR and Passport.

One thing I have learnt about LTR is there are hundreds of ways to set it up. It is possible to have a company on more than one site. The users can manually switch between sites with the base having radios on both sites. There are various ways for the sites to be networked together.

I think some of the differences are due to the vintage and maker of the LTR equipment. If it is an older controller the repeater numbers had to be spread out like 1, 5, 9, 13, 17. If the order was 1,2,3,4,5 then 5 would be selected as the alternate channel most of the time when the home channel was busy. Uniden came out with improved controllers that eliminated that restriction. I have seen controllers that can be setup either way.

Likewise only home channels need the idle burst but systems have been setup with idle bursts on all channels. The other extreme is a system not to have idle bursts at all and the LTR groups are treated like CTCSS with the added benefit of channel redirection. I have seen some repeaters used for both conventional and LTR traffic. During the repeater hang time the repeater will transmit LTR indicating idle (The talkgroup is 255).

I would recommend you try this program:
http://www.radioreference.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&p=88422#88422
but I have a very biased opinion about it :wink:

Having used a BC780 to decode LTR I immediately saw some shortcomings as the scanners do not show all the information. When people on this site started to talk about a LTR decoder I jumped in and modified the trunker program to decode LTR. If you search for LTRDump and LTRTrunk you will see more info on it.

I use mostly the LTRDump program. The advantage is you know what the repeater number is and also the repeater numbers of the free channels at that moment. It will not tell the repeater numbers of other active home channels at that moment but it is still useful to see what other repeater numbers you need to find after you monitor the frequency for awhile. It is also helpful when you need to figure out two systems sharing the same site.

I have come across several systems that have multiple licenses under different classes and different licensees. Companies merge and people sell off their systems. When searching for other frequencies I tend to do a location search in the FCC db for that site and plug in all the frequencies using the same band in the scanner. If it comes up with LTR I hit hold and make note of the frequency and LTR info.

One last thing that I am looking at could be classified as "To a hammer everything looks like nail". Most of my effort has been to figure out an improved form of LTR called Passport. The Passport controllers can handle conventional and regular LTR as well. Foxwoods Casino is part of a multiple site Passport system with the majority of the radio traffic being Regular LTR. If you used a regular scanner then all you would find and decode is Regular LTR. With LTRDump you would see mostly Regular LTR but the CW IDs on some of the frequencies and some of the idle bursts would be Passport. It appears that the Regular LTR home channels are always Regular LTR and the Passport Home Channels are always Passport but the other channels can be either depending on how busy the site gets. No doubt you could set up a conventional repeater controlled by a passport controller to be an "overflow" channel for Regular LTR or Passport as well.

I noticed that the talkgroup for the CW-ID is 253 on a Regular LTR system, 254 on a LTR-Net system, and 255 on a Regular LTR channel of a Passport system. CW IDs are very handy for LTR decoding, and even more so if the CW IDer works.

73 Eric

 

[pro92b]

It is alot better to use a low pass filtered data slicer like the one mentioned here.

It is better, but the tap point on the PRO-2067 is filtered and gives reasonable results. The obstacle of building a filtered slicer seems to keep most people from being able to use your programs.

 

[EricCottrell]

It is alot better to use a low pass filtered data slicer like the one mentioned here.

It is better, but the tap point on the PRO-2067 is filtered and gives reasonable results. The obstacle of building a filtered slicer seems to keep most people from being able to use your programs.

Hello,

If it is already filtered then that will work. There is a filtered point on the BC780 as well but you need to scan a bank that is setup as LTR first to put it in the filtered mode.

73 Eric

 

[SCPD]

Got all the Downloads and have Printed all the resource material, I think I just might be able to do this.!

Thankyou Eric and pro92b. There is ALOT of LTR up here, including some Public Safety Users on Comerical systems, I have learned this with Monitoring the ICC (Inter-County Comm.) out of Greenville, Tx. I believe Game Warderns (TP&W) have a Group or two on this.

Anyways, I'll Try and have this and, If possible, All Shipman Comm. sites & systems ID'd and in the RR-DB soon.

TC
MT